Bows - few quesions

[Dzbanekk]

First of all, welcome !

I have few questions regarding bows on Arelith :

1. Can I find bow with infinite arrows on server?
2. What stats has best bow on Arelith?
3. Is it possible to enchant bow by perma essence?

[Baron Saturday]

1) There are, to my knowledge, no infinite arrow bows on Arelith. The easiest way to get arrows is by taking the archer path of the ranger class, which lets you make arrow bundles of increasing quality.
2) The best craftable bow is the grand longbow. If there are better bows in dungeon loot, I've never seen them.
3) You can't put damage essences on bows, but you CAN put temp essences on arrow bundles (which is a specific item, looks like a club, don't confuse it with a stack of 99 arrows). When you "use" the bundle, the temp essence is applied as permanent damage to the arrows. Here's a link to the wiki's guide on how to get the most damage on your arrow bundles: Arrow Management & Essencing

[Dzbanekk]

Hi Baron,

Thanks for quick reply. So bad news. I hope if infinite arrow bows will be implemented and available to use perma essence on them.
Using essences on bundles is expensive. Meele character could use perma essence on weapon + temp essences to get additional damage.
Archer has to spend money to use perma and temp essence for bundle (including 5x99 arrows?), so is spending lot of money for each shoot (not hit!!)

[Baron Saturday]

I think you're underestimating potential damage bonuses and overestimating the costs.

A fairly typical archer build might look something like ranger 12/AA 15/rogue 3. If using a grand longbow with damask arrows, it's going to hit for ~21 damage, which isn't a bad start. Enchanting a damask arrow bundle with 1d4 elemental damage and buying a 1d6 temp essence might set you back 1-2k, but from that you get almost 500 arrows, so you're only spending, what, 2-4 gold per arrow for an extra ~6 damage?

Regardless, I think it's pretty unlikely that infinite ammo bows will be added to the module as loot. I could be wrong, of course, but the dev team has avoided them for 15 years!

[WanderingPoet]

There were a few infinite arrow bow artefacts before artefacts were removed! However, they were only usually +1 or +2 arrows, and couldn't be enchanted further - making them weaker than Archer made damask arrows and without being enchantable/swappable you'd be stuck with just weak arrows forever. You're actually better off /without/ infinite arrows than with them as a dedicated archer.

But yes, temp essences are pretty cheap (a few hundred gold each) and apply to 500 arrows. For comparison:
Masterly Damask Blade = 6 damage + 1d6 essence
Damask Arrow = 3 damage + 1d6 essence + 1d6 essence - plus various spells/effects that transfer over as well.

That is to say, while the damage is slightly less, you don't /have/ to spend a permanent essence to get pretty close to the damage damage as a blade, but if you choose to make that investment then you can do even more damage.

Biggest issue with bows is actually the mighty, since it is low on the grand longbow and only +5 on a composite while it is pretty easy to get 20 strength as an archer.

[Void]

Hi Baron,

Thanks for quick reply. So bad news. I hope if infinite arrow bows will be implemented and available to use perma essence on them.
Using essences on bundles is expensive. Meele character could use perma essence on weapon + temp essences to get additional damage.
Archer has to spend money to use perma and temp essence for bundle (including 5x99 arrows?), so is spending lot of money for each shoot (not hit!!)

Archer on arelith has very high damage potential, but I haven't looked into it deeply.

The most damage I've seen a bowman deal per shot was 140+, and that's without sneak attacks. I haven't looked how it worked. It was definitely an arcane archer, maybe with divine might on top of that.

For a melee characters, essences are not a primary attack source, unless you're a dex dual-wielder.

[Ebonstar]

have a shadowdancer archer in my vault that isnt an arcane archer and with a grand longbow improved critical and focus his normal essenced damask arrows can hit for up from 90-160 range not to mention arrows can be changed out with varied damage in case the target is immune to one damage or the other

[Twily]

There's two bows I consider to be the best on Arelith

The Grand Longbow, as sited above

And a dungeon looted Composite Longbow +2, which has AttackBonus +2, Mighty +4
This bow does have lower AB and can't penetrate X/+3 damage reductions due to only being AB+2, but for Arcane Archers this isn't always a big deal as they have high AB and can penetrate the damage reduction thanks to their ImbueArrow feat.
If the adequate strength is acquired, this bow can give +2 damage per hit over the Grand Longbow.
The base value of these bows is also low enough that you could have them lightly enchanted(IE, two +2 skills), and due to having only 2 base properties and being low value, making it runic for an even stronger enchant is not too difficult to achieve.

[The Kriv]

There's two bows I consider to be the best on Arelith

The Grand Longbow, as sited above

And a dungeon looted Composite Longbow +2, which has AttackBonus +2, Mighty +4
This bow does have lower AB and can't penetrate X/+3 damage reductions due to only being AB+2, but for Arcane Archers this isn't always a big deal as they have high AB and can penetrate the damage reduction thanks to their ImbueArrow feat.
If the adequate strength is acquired, this bow can give +2 damage per hit over the Grand Longbow.
The base value of these bows is also low enough that you could have them lightly enchanted(IE, two +2 skills), and due to having only 2 base properties and being low value, making it runic for an even stronger enchant is not too difficult to achieve.

In the damage meters of Grand Longbow +3/Mty+2 (w/ +2 Dex) vs Composite Longbow +2/+4 Mty

Essentially, their damage outpost curve is so very close.

Where they differer is in the AC of the target. In a sustained, long battle, the +2 Composite Out-damages the +3 Grand Longbow on average hits/damage with all other stats being equal, right up until around the AC35 mark.

Right around AC35, the two bows are so fractionally different they are essentially equal. For targets with AC 40+ the Grand Longbow Does as marginally better in damage as the +2 Composite does at the AC Below 35.

Adding a +1d4 Mighty Enchant on the +2 Composite... OR adding a +1 Dex enchant narrows but DOES NOT CHANGE THIS CURV RELATIONSHIP.

Also, the +2 Composite, with Weapon Restrictions "IS" equipable BEFORE the Grand Longbow, by I think 3 levels (IIRC)

So if you're looking for Best In Slot bow... it really depends on what you're killing. The Grand Longbow IS the Boss Killer. Where the +2 Composite is the 'every other target' choice. It's really up to you. Ultimately, the difference is negligable.

(Obviously, you need 18 STR for the Composite, where only 14 STR for the Grand to take full advantage)

[R0GUE]

On a related note I would like to ask a few questions, make a few observations about Crossbows.

First, either the level requirement or the Crafting DC for the masterly heavy crossbow seems out of whack. It was one of the very fist items I crafted, probably around level 5. But I can't actually use the thing until I turn level 11. Is that intended that have to lug the thing around for 5-6 levels after crafting it?

Second, I was really sad when I tried to apply my permanent essence I found to my current crossbow, and it not only didn't work but consumed the essence. Just an observation.

I'm planning on focusing on crossbows as my weapon of choice as a ranged bard. Any suggestions? I'd like to eventually get a hold of the craftable Hand Spinnerett Crossbow, but I realize I'll need an insane UMD to use it.

[msterswrdsmn]

Permanent essences disappear whenever you use them, regardless as to whether or not the application was successful. I've had a few unfortunate accidents with characters accidentally drink them via self applications.

Item level restrictions work the same way as the original nwn item level restrictions, where the level you can use the item at is determined by the items base value. A weapon with weak stats but a high base value will still require a higher level.

[Void]

On a related note I would like to ask a few questions, make a few observations about Crossbows.

First, either the level requirement or the Crafting DC for the masterly heavy crossbow seems out of whack. It was one of the very fist items I crafted, probably around level 5. But I can't actually use the thing until I turn level 11. Is that intended that have to lug the thing around for 5-6 levels after crafting it?

Second, I was really sad when I tried to apply my permanent essence I found to my current crossbow, and it not only didn't work but consumed the essence. Just an observation.

I'm planning on focusing on crossbows as my weapon of choice as a ranged bard. Any suggestions? I'd like to eventually get a hold of the craftable Hand Spinnerett Crossbow, but I realize I'll need an insane UMD to use it.

Crossbows do not work with rapid shot feat. This greatly reduces their utility, because in situation where a crossbowman will land one attack, a bowman can land two.

Essences can't be applied to bows and crossbows themselves. They also can't be enchanted in a basin, as far as I know.

[Baron Saturday]

Bows and crossbows can be enchanted in basins, fortunately.

Low-level play on a crossbow character is pain and suffering. No rapid shot means only 1 attack until level 6. No crossbow equivalent of the Archer path means bolt bundles have to be manually crafted, which takes a lot of different trade skills, so you'll probably have to use generic, unenchanted/unessenced bolts +1. Best crossbow will be whatever you can enchant (+1 AB/+1 Mighty/+1d4 Massive Crits, typically). I'd highly recommend just using melee until you can use that first crafted bow.

[R0GUE]

On a related note I would like to ask a few questions, make a few observations about Crossbows.

First, either the level requirement or the Crafting DC for the masterly heavy crossbow seems out of whack. It was one of the very fist items I crafted, probably around level 5. But I can't actually use the thing until I turn level 11. Is that intended that have to lug the thing around for 5-6 levels after crafting it?

Second, I was really sad when I tried to apply my permanent essence I found to my current crossbow, and it not only didn't work but consumed the essence. Just an observation.

I'm planning on focusing on crossbows as my weapon of choice as a ranged bard. Any suggestions? I'd like to eventually get a hold of the craftable Hand Spinnerett Crossbow, but I realize I'll need an insane UMD to use it.

Crossbows do not work with rapid shot feat. This greatly reduces their utility, because in situation where a crossbowman will land one attack, a bowman can land two.

Essences can't be applied to bows and crossbows themselves. They also can't be enchanted in a basin, as far as I know.

But there's rapid reload which is essentially the same thing

[Baron Saturday]

No, rapid reload just lets you have as many attacks/round as your BAB allows for. Without it, you only get 1 APR max with a crossbow.

[R0GUE]

No, rapid reload just lets you have as many attacks/round as your BAB allows for. Without it, you only get 1 APR max with a crossbow.

Well ok not exactly the same thing, but I just meant you get the multiple attacks per round. Anyway, I'm pretty committed to a crossbow user just for flavor, so I'd rather have good suggestions on how to maximize it, not the generic "bows are better answer." You said crossbows are pain at low level but I'm already level 9 and have been using them the whole time and I've only died once so far. I've got a Master Crossbow I crafted waiting for me in 2 more levels.

[Void]

But there's rapid reload which is essentially the same thing

It is not the same thing at all.

Well ok not exactly the same thing, but I just meant you get the multiple attacks per round.

With rapid shot you can have two attacks per round at level 1. With a bow. But not with a crossbow.
Also, both of those attacks will have same AB and identical chance to hit. Basically, rapid shot gives you one extra attack in addition to what you'd get normally.

With a crossbow, rapid shot doesn't work, and you'll be only getting standard amount of attacks. And only if you have rapid reload feat.

[R0GUE]

But there's rapid reload which is essentially the same thing

It is not the same thing at all.

Well ok not exactly the same thing, but I just meant you get the multiple attacks per round.

With rapid shot you can have two attacks per round at level 1. With a bow. But not with a crossbow.
Also, both of those attacks will have same AB and identical chance to hit. Basically, rapid shot gives you one extra attack in addition to what you'd get normally.

With a crossbow, rapid shot doesn't work, and you'll be only getting standard amount of attacks. And only if you have rapid reload feat.

Yes ok I understand but do you have any positive advice for using a crossbow?

[Baron Saturday]

If I sound discouraging, it's not that I'm trying to dissuade you from trying a crossbow build, but because I myself was disappointed when I tried to make one.

The biggest weakness I found was very low damage, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post. One of the easiest ways to mitigate this is by making bronze bolt bundles (Carpentry, DC 1, 2 softwood/3 bronze ingots) . Unlike the other bundles, they don't require you to make arrow heads and arrow shafts first, you can just turn softwood and bronze ingots directly into the bundles. Why all of the bundles don't work like this is anyone's guess! Once you've got your bundles, you can starting enchanting/essencing them, which will help your damage output immensely.

I would also pick up weapon finesse, for the same reason that normal archers do: Sometimes you just gotta stab stuff.

[R0GUE]

If I sound discouraging, it's not that I'm trying to dissuade you from trying a crossbow build, but because I myself was disappointed when I tried to make one.

The biggest weakness I found was very low damage, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post. One of the easiest ways to mitigate this is by making bronze bolt bundles (Carpentry, DC 1, 2 softwood/3 bronze ingots) . Unlike the other bundles, they don't require you to make arrow heads and arrow shafts first, you can just turn softwood and bronze ingots directly into the bundles. Why all of the bundles don't work like this is anyone's guess! Once you've got your bundles, you can starting enchanting/essencing them, which will help your damage output immensely.

I would also pick up weapon finesse, for the same reason that normal archers do: Sometimes you just gotta stab stuff.

Thanks Baron, that is definitely good advice!

[Void]

But there's rapid reload which is essentially the same thing

It is not the same thing at all.

Well ok not exactly the same thing, but I just meant you get the multiple attacks per round.

With rapid shot you can have two attacks per round at level 1. With a bow. But not with a crossbow.
Also, both of those attacks will have same AB and identical chance to hit. Basically, rapid shot gives you one extra attack in addition to what you'd get normally.

With a crossbow, rapid shot doesn't work, and you'll be only getting standard amount of attacks. And only if you have rapid reload feat.

Yes ok I understand but do you have any positive advice for using a crossbow?

No, I don't. I rolled a crossbow ranger sniper recently, so far it feels like I'd be better off making a bowman archer ranger instead.

See, archer path ranger can craft free arrow bundles, but not free bolt bundles, which means I'd have to invest heavily into crafting to have bolts ready. Crafting for a crossbowman seems to be multi-path. Basically you need carpentry to make bundles themselves, then arrow heads require art crafting, and if you want to have your own metal for arrowheads, that's forging. Seems a bit awkward.

Worst case scenario I'll either reroll the character or pick up longbow without rerolling (after having wasted two feats on crossbows).

[Baron Saturday]

Bundle crafting is incredibly awkward and makes no sense compared to literally any other crafting recipe. It would be like if weaponsmiths had to have tailoring and carpentry and use those to make hilts separately from the blade.

It is honestly one of my biggest peeves with Arelith's crafting system.

[Void]

Bundle crafting is incredibly awkward and makes no sense compared to literally any other crafting recipe. It would be like if weaponsmiths had to have tailoring and carpentry and use those to make hilts separately from the blade.

It is honestly one of my biggest peeves with Arelith's crafting system.

This is actually a thing, but for armor smiths.

Certain armors require "leather torso" components which are made by tailoring. Those components, in turn, require leather, which requires animal skins and tanning acid, and tanning acid requires herbalism and is made out of glass vials that requires art crafting for making both glass and vial itself.

See:

http://wiki.arelith.com/Scale_mail (dc 24 forging for steel scalemail)
http://wiki.arelith.com/Tailoring#Leather_torso (dc11 tailoring for leather torso)
http://wiki.arelith.com/Tailoring#Leather_.28Large.29 (dc5 tailoring leather)
http://wiki.arelith.com/Herbalism#Tanning_acid (dc6 herbalism)
http://wiki.arelith.com/Art_crafting#Glass_Vial (dc 3 art crafting)
http://wiki.arelith.com/Art_crafting#Glass (dc 1 art crafting)

If you go through the whole process it 'll create a ..... +1 armor.

[Baron Saturday]

The main difference there is that there's oodles of PCs who make and sell armor, so if you don't want to go through the tedium of crafting leather torsos (which, I agree, is also kind of a pain), you don't have to. Meanwhile, in five-something years, I have never seen a PC selling bolt bundles, so you have to do it yourself, and since they're your primary consumable, you have to do it A LOT.

[Void]

The main difference there is that there's oodles of PCs who make and sell armor, so if you don't want to go through the tedium of crafting leather torsos (which, I agree, is also kind of a pain), you don't have to. Meanwhile, in five-something years, I have never seen a PC selling bolt bundles, so you have to do it yourself, and since they're your primary consumable, you have to do it A LOT.

Most of the time the armors sold in stores are the ones that do not require leather torsoes. (aside from Ankheg breastplates)
Usually people try to sell fullplates, which are crafted without it.

Although I see the point about armor not being a consumable.

And now I wonder if I should reroll my ranger into a longbow archer...