Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

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ForgottenBhaal
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Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:23 pm

Hello. I noticed earlier that Zarus had been removed from the game. Does this mean that we are gonna start removing "non-fr" faiths from the server? And if so, I am wondering when Oooogoobooogoo and La'Laskra will be removed.

And I am kinda curious as if to why they were added to begin with, when there are perfectly acceptable pantheons for both drow and goblin out there.
I mean, do these cover things that could not already be covered by either heresy or a god that already exists for their pantheon? Just curious.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Sab1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:36 pm

I always have said adding player made gods was a really bad idea.

I know goblins for a long time were Oooogoobooogoo, so I think that was put in because goblins for years were already worshipping it. Some will bash me for this, but La'Laskra seemed like it was simply Lolth lite, people who didn't like Lolth so they made a god with what they liked.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Dr. B » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 pm

Oogooboogoo predates the big expansion to Arelith's book of deities that happened a few years back. The big issue with Oogooboogoo is that he is accessible to too many alignments (CN, NN, LE, NE, CE). At the very least, make him only available to non-lawful goblins so there can be room, and incentive, for a thriving faction of Maglubiyites, who is currently accessible in Arelith only to three alignments (LE, LN, NE--he doesn't even get NN, which he does is FR lore).

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Swords to Rust » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:26 pm

I hope they will be removed. I think the dynamic of the drow pantheon is interesting, where you have the rivalry between Lolth and Vhaeraun and their different ideas on how the drow race should be governed. La'laska feels like a weird inclusion and doesn't really add anything that other deities don't already represent.

Perfectly fine to RP a follower of said god, but I don't think the mechanics should support home made deities.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:52 pm

I've heard that Oooogoobooogoo is also actually just cyric? Why not just worship cyric? And La'laskra is just Loviatar.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Maladus » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:37 pm

I can’t speak to Oogoo but La’laskra was conceived as a Lawful alternative for Drow to RP with, but in keeping with some of the other elements of Drow culture (such as a matriarchal society). That is something that is not currently offered by the existing Drow pantheon and creates an interesting avenue for Drow players to RP with. I would not want to see her removed.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by ActionReplay » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Oooogoobooogoo might just be one big hoax, a deity trolling the goblins. Who knows? ;)

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Arnt drow a chaotic evil race? Why do they need a lawful deity? Why would one exist?
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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Ork » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:50 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Arnt drow a chaotic evil race? Why do they need a lawful deity? Why would one exist?
Maybe years and years of quality roleplay promoted its existence. Maybe drow aren't a chaotic evil race, but the deity more represented in literature is. Maybe the fact that drow of a multitude of evil alignments exist on Faerun and anyone with at least a little bit of lore digging could find that the majority of drow don't even follow Lloth. Hm.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:00 pm

I'd say they are a CE race and don't really know if server RP is enough to claim that a new Goddess was birthed into one of the most cruel and malicious pantheons in all of FR.

I'd say if this did happen I don't know why Lolth or Shar didn't just eat her within like 4 days.

Defies logic, and I'm not a fan.

Also drow are CE, it's not the literature, they're a CE race with a CE society and a CE religion.
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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Memelord » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Swords to Rust wrote:I hope they will be removed. I think the dynamic of the drow pantheon is interesting, where you have the rivalry between Lolth and Vhaeraun and their different ideas on how the drow race should be governed. La'laska feels like a weird inclusion and doesn't really add anything that other deities don't already represent.

Perfectly fine to RP a follower of said god, but I don't think the mechanics should support home made deities.

^ This ^

I don't really care what alignment your drow are, I feel like adding additional deities just sort of waters down already well fleshed out pantheons.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:24 pm

It fosters non committal non confrontational play, and that's 100% NOT what the drow are about.
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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by reighbo » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:36 pm

Being that i have played as both a goblin, and as the Oogooboogoo Clan's 4th faction boss, perhaps I can answer sum questions ... just not all ...

The Oogooboogoo Clan was founded, and the RP of Oogooboogoo worship, by its 1st Chief Oboo.
This was before Oogooboogoo was added as a Deity, and Cyric was often chosen (even suggested) but only mechanically, while the RP was Oogooboogoo worship.
So they were never actually 1 in the same no.
Fact is Chief Oboo only allowed for the worship of Oogooboogoo, within his Clan, and might even mace-bash in the heads of goblins RPing the open worship of others ... including Cyric,or other goblin Deities.
ANY god could be actually chosen, but it was the OPEN - RP that mattered.
All the RP was of Oogooboogoo worship, Oboo was a Cleric-build afterall,
and seemed ALL but very Very VERY few goblins would join this.
My own goblin joined at this time.
Yet My goblin cant mechanically pick Oogooboogoo due to Class restrictions, so it remains an RP thing for me to this day.
I cant remember exactly when Oogooboogoo was added to the server as a Deity but, it was many years ago.
I'd guess either just before the big Mind-Flayer Invasion (server changing) Event, or perhaps just after.
And after he was added pretty much ALL goblins able would pick him mechanically, and the RP just continued.
WHY exactly Oogooboogoo was added i do not know, yet i feel i can say that the IG RP must have had a lot to do with it ... being that pretty much every goblin-player chose to join this Clan & Deity.
I can also sorta say that ... every goblin player seemed overjoyed with the addition.

It might sound "less fair" to sum ... yet i never felt so.
(and as a long-time-goblin-player unable to PICK Oogooboogoo).
As there has been other Goblin Clans:
The Black Hands Clan.
The Biletooth Clan.
The Doorbane Clan.
The Flamin' Skulls Clan.
And as well a few goblins to not join any clans.

We DID try the Goblin Clan vs. Goblin Clan RP.
Oogooboogoo vs. Black Hands.
But really ... no one seemed to "like it".
Feedback I'd get was, that the overwhelming majority of the goblin-players would rather,
Goblin-unity over Goblin-rivalry.
1 united (underdark) goblin race/clan.
So during the rule of the Clan's 3rd faction boss, Bugga Knows,
Was decided that Oogooboogoo Clan goblins could worship ANY Deity, tho Oogooboogoo remained the Clan's namesake and Chief Deity.
And has even been many a Maglubiyite, yet they are welcomed to join us too, just like the Doorbanes did ...

Yet it was,
The Oogooboogoo Clan that lasted, and by now might even be among the oldest/longest running Factions on the server ...
This only made the Deity more ... RPed about/over the years.

But You'd be also 100% correct ... If the Dev's/Dm's decided to remove Oogooboogoo as a deity,
Cyric or many other deities could be just as easy picked ... As that is how it all started in the 1st place.
And that "thing" about the amount of Deity's worshipers effecting the Piety ... long changed/removed.

I just cant at this point see the "Oogooboogoo" Rp ending as fast tho, after all it has lasted a while ... Yet that will also be for its 5th faction boss to consider and decide ... ;)

:mrgreen:

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by rookie » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:20 pm

Personally I'm a fan of player driven things that change the server given enough effort. I think there has been a lot of work going into both those deities that including them as a select-able option is a nice thing and think they should stay, but wouldn't pick them myself because they don't resonate on the type characters I want to play.

I don't think Arelith has to be a static copy/paste of Faerun lore. I also have a hard time picturing Andunor existing as is in Faerun given it goes against stereotypes but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing, rather a part that makes Arelith different. False/new gods have been explored before in D&D as well so it is not a unique situation either.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Sab1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:38 pm

Memelord wrote:
Swords to Rust wrote:I hope they will be removed. I think the dynamic of the drow pantheon is interesting, where you have the rivalry between Lolth and Vhaeraun and their different ideas on how the drow race should be governed. La'laska feels like a weird inclusion and doesn't really add anything that other deities don't already represent.

Perfectly fine to RP a follower of said god, but I don't think the mechanics should support home made deities.

^ This ^

I don't really care what alignment your drow are, I feel like adding additional deities just sort of waters down already well fleshed out pantheons.
Amen

Also the problem with allowing player made gods is two have been let in, so when players asked for Cordoria and it was shot down it didn't sit well. La’laskra will always be to me a made up god where people took what they wanted from the drow and put it into a god to fit their likes.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Dr. B » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:41 pm

La'laskra was originally conceived as an alternative to Lolth--a deity who extolled discipline and order and spurned chaos and upheaval--and was very interesting in the beginning. And yes, she was an aspect of Loviatar, although La'laskrans held that Loviatar was, in fact, an aspect of La'laskra. At some point the deity got watered down to become more congenial to Lolthite society, as house Xun'viir needed more members to sustain itself and had to pick from Lolthites. Hence, La'laskra became "Lolth's vassal". I would be in favor of La'laskra staying around if the deity and its followers could be more diametrically opposed to Lolth, although they can also do that by being infernalists, as some drow in Andunor matter-of-factly are.

Drow aren't a chaotic evil race. What does that even mean? They're chaotic evil if and because they're born and raised in societies that worship chaotic evil deities, and even then, a great many members of your typical drow city are neutral evil, and a good portion of them are also chaotic neutral.
Last edited by Dr. B on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Irongron » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:52 pm

It is no secret among the team that I am personally not fond of either deity, and have ruled out further player made deities finding their way in game.

The goblin deity was added a long time ago, and really sprang up from a lot of other goblin players following the RP of one player. It was definitely an achievement to have done this, but in my own head I always treated it as another faith masquerading as a goblin deity to gain local followers in Arelith - something that does happen in the FR setting. While I was just a player then I had no real objections, but it was only after many years (and almost infinite fixtures) that I began to feel it was maybe enough now.

Personally I have more of an issue with La'laskra, for two main reasons. The lesser of these is that in FR Lore the drow pantheon has a highly developed narrative and given the popularity of the race is widely known, thus I find a 'made up god' really quite jarring.

The greater issue I have with the faith is that I can't help but feel it exists purely to nullify the greatest 'weakness' of playing a drow - name that they are a 'tragic' race. Llloth is a monster, a tortured being that projects her paranoia onto her people. The dominance of that faith highlights that drow are subordinate to a flawed mistress; that they are themselves a deeply imperfect and doomed race, and one entirely born of their own defeat. The RP challenge faced by playing in Llothite society is reflecting the fact that drow are truly the victims of themselves - their own worst enemies.

In this respect the addition of a dominant, lawful, faith circumvents what I feel is the one bad thing about playing an otherwise superior race; allowing them to thrive without recognising how ultimately feeble their society truly is. Drow are one of the few great things about the FR setting really, they have a real story unique to the setting (where most races/history is just lifted from elsewhere). Ultimately I just could not shake the feeling the deity was conceived to overcome OOC limitations (and to enable more of an BDSM feeling among the whip=wielding lady race of the Underdark)

There is of course another side to all of that. We have a lot of regular drow players who really embraced this, likely because after 10+ years of Lllothite RP they found the change really refreshing. My above opinions are just that, and are not typically of the kind that directs my development decisions. I really have something of a laissez faire approach to how other poeple choose to RP, and I think the server allows the right level of freedom of players to play in the style they wish to, rather than decrees about 'what is correct' coming down from on high.

In both cases I cannot say for sure whether the deities will remain indefinitely though, sometimes after x years of something it can be time to move on. We'll see.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Dr. B » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:53 pm

Drow are one of the few great things about the FR setting really, they have a real story unique to the setting
Well, they are distantly inspired by the dark elves of Norse mythology.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:00 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Drow are one of the few great things about the FR setting really, they have a real story unique to the setting
Well, they are distantly inspired by the dark elves of Norse mythology.
Very distantly, but then you'd be hard pressed to find any D&D lore that isn't plagiarized or built upon older fantasy works or old folk tales.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by flower » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:03 pm

A great post Irongron.

The issue with llothite drow on Arelith was often misunderstanding Lloth as well. When -heretics- were rising, lltohite houses existing on Arelith were fighting each other over banal things with blatant excuse Lloth demands strong to devour weak.

Yet if you look into lore, nowehere where Lloth's domain was being threathened would llothites fight each other, instead they stood United (but few rare examples) because Spider queen would come down on any priestess/matron targetting her own followers over outsiders.

Just look at Menzoberranzar, when its forces got shattered by dwarves. Lloth directly forbidden any infights until city regain power with threath of direct intervention from her.

Players often complained how Lltoh makes it impossible to stand as United vs outsiders. But the only reason why it was that way, were they, as they misunderstood how Lloth works. No Lalaskara was needed to unite drow, only proper approach to the dogma and faith of current gods.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:17 pm

When Lolthite's are in real power, there is a 3000% increase the amount of bitching in Discord and on the forums. "Wahhhh Drow are mostly not Menzo drow wtf Andunor is like Skullport bla bla bla"

Lolth's not in power, alternative, more player-friendly/collaborative deity gets introduced and lo and behold, a 3000% increase in bitching on the forums and Discord. absolutely shocking. "Waaaah Drow are not Drow enough they're supposed to wicked La'Laskra is bad bla bla bla"

Been swinging back and forth for three - four years.

Make up your minds.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by flower » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:21 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:When Lolthite's are in real power, there is a 3000% increase the amount of bitching in Discord and on the forums. "Wahhhh Drow are mostly not Menzo drow wtf Andunor is like Skullport bla bla bla"

Lolth's not in power, alternative, more player-friendly/collaborative deity gets introduced and lo and behold, a 3000% increase in bitching on the forums and Discord. absolutely shocking. "Waaaah Drow are not Drow enough they're supposed to wicked La'Laskra is bad bla bla bla"

Been swinging back and forth for three - four years.

Make up your minds.

I don't attend discord they can bitch there as much as they want. :D

I think we all would agree how things are set should be determinated IC, not on discord or forums. And if someone else thinks that discord prevails then i think such person is on wrong server.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:30 pm

rookie wrote:Personally I'm a fan of player driven things that change the server given enough effort. I think there has been a lot of work going into both those deities that including them as a select-able option is a nice thing and think they should stay, but wouldn't pick them myself because they don't resonate on the type characters I want to play.

I don't think Arelith has to be a static copy/paste of Faerun lore. I also have a hard time picturing Andunor existing as is in Faerun given it goes against stereotypes but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing, rather a part that makes Arelith different. False/new gods have been explored before in D&D as well so it is not a unique situation either.
Cities like Andunor are actually the norm in the Underdark, not the exception.

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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:03 pm

There's a serious bit of spiteful cooperation that has to take place between the races in order to live and have a functional city at all. Races may have a capital city and/or forts/temples dotted around, but nearly every single city is a mish-mash of all UD races.

Mostly because the UD is full of enemies, and if you make a city 'DROW ONLY' you're going to invent a lot more for yourself.
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Re: Ooogooboogoo and La'laskra

Post by rookie » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:07 am

TimeAdept wrote: Cities like Andunor are actually the norm in the Underdark, not the exception.
We, uh, must have read different materials for Forgotten Realms then. I'm not sure if you're referring to something like Skullport or a list of other cities.

As a note to avoid confusing things, I'm not talking about the fact Andunor has multiple races in it, rather how things work there. Some of it is from server rules meant to keep the players from having a bad time and a few other ways RP can play out there that might not directly relate to server rules.

Edit - And as a further note as I said originally I'm not saying things should change, rather it is part of the difference between playing a game based on Faerun and the lore behind it.

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