Do mental stats even matter?

You have questions? We may have answers.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:19 pm

I think cha is literally physical attractiveness due to IG NPC's describing PC's with high charisma as "obviously attractive" instead of other terms.

And I don't make it a habit of arguing with NPC's, so that's just what it means to me IC.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

User avatar
Thanatosis
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Thanatosis » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:31 pm

everything MUST have be completely clearcut and simple

nuance and unique takes on things should be OUTLAWED. they are FAR TOO COMPLEX for my brain
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

User avatar
Xanos950
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Xanos950 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:37 pm

About 3/4 of the server run cookie-cutter power builds (myself included), so... Do mental stats even matter? Yes, but No, because you're probably going to dump those stats anyway. Really just depends if you wanna rp stats that you don't have on your sheet.

PinataPlethora
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:41 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:Just because someone has 8 Charisma doesn't mean they're a bum who has no social skills whatsoever. Or that they're ugly -- which is a pet peeve of that low CHA characters must always be ugly, but that's another discussion for another day ;)
Charisma is force of personality. Some RPG systems even explicitly separate physical attractiveness from it, by including a separate stat. Charismatic people are attractive, often in spite of their physical appearance, because confidence and drive are attractive.

Sorcerers don't cast spells by being gorgeous, they do it through raw force of will.

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2713
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Iceborn » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:06 pm

Stat-dumping should not be the standard of the server, and those that dump and have actually low stats, should roleplay them, and be held to the standard of their roleplay.

I'm not going to be treating any low-cha character as particularly attractive any time soon. Nor should the rest of the server.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Mouthy Expert
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:35 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Mouthy Expert » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:12 pm

Thanatosis wrote:everything MUST have be completely clearcut and simple

nuance and unique takes on things should be OUTLAWED. they are FAR TOO COMPLEX for my brain
good post my dude, you sure showed that strawman who's boss'

Real talk, there's "nuance", and then there's "depicting your 8 cha 8 wis wm as a flawless ubermensch".

User avatar
If Valor Were Inches
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:57 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:32 pm

Iceborn wrote:Stat-dumping should not be the standard of the server, and those that dump and have actually low stats, should roleplay them, and be held to the standard of their roleplay.

I'm not going to be treating any low-cha character as particularly attractive any time soon. Nor should the rest of the server.
What I like to do is first make what is optimal for my character idea, and then adjust it for what my planned character's persona is.If I know they will not be very likable or wise, I'll keep any 8 points. But usually I try to blunt them to 10 as a safety net, or at least 12 if I know they have some amount of either one.

They're now less than optimal, but still usually decent enough to do what I need them to do in PvE, which is really all that matters to me.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: East Coast

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Iceborn wrote:Stat-dumping should not be the standard of the server, and those that dump and have actually low stats, should roleplay them, and be held to the standard of their roleplay.

I'm not going to be treating any low-cha character as particularly attractive any time soon. Nor should the rest of the server.
Without treading over into "this is how you should RP" territory, I have to agree with this statement. We are a Roleplay server, after all, and compared to many other RP servers within the NWN (and NWN2) community, many would consider us a Heavy RP server.

That doesn't mean the staff is breathing down your neck, waiting for you to mess up in RP'ing your character correctly (thank goodness you guys allow us creative freedom!), but it does mean we should at least put an effort in it, which also makes it more fun for everyone.

User avatar
Thanatosis
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Thanatosis » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:43 pm

Mouthy Expert wrote:good post my dude, you sure showed that strawman who's boss'

Real talk, there's "nuance", and then there's "depicting your 8 cha 8 wis wm as a flawless ubermensch".
i can't say what the best way to reply to a strawman is, but i can say probably the worst way is to fire back with one of your own

More pertinently, maybe instead of biting your nails over whether that guy is playing his 8 wis character more like a 10 wis character, you ought to focus on if he's doing things like adding to the narrative, or being interesting, or making the people around him be interesting.

Or I guess you could spend your time on the forums, crying about imaginary 8 charisma characters, and firmly stating you'll ignore certain parts of their characters just because it says "low" somewhere on their examine sheet.

tl;dr who cares? There are far more important sins to worry about than 1 point modifier quibbles.
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: East Coast

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:26 pm

Thanatosis wrote:tl;dr who cares?
The whole point of this thread is to find out who cares, and more importantly, whether it matters. And, looking through the answers, it looks like it does.

Also, that's such an odd response to a thread on a server that's depicted as a Roleplay server. If it were an Action server, I would completely agree with you. But here? We, the players, actually care.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Sockss » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm

I'd ask yourself why you feel this matters. Provided you have entertaining interactions, it's all good.

You don't have access to someones character sheet, nor do you have a method of judging; so it's all fairly moot and reeks of elitism.

A player can't police this and a DM shouldn't (Do you want a DM telling you your character can't speak to people if you have 8 CHA, or can't lead people, or whatever her interpretation of 8 CHA is?).

On the other side, I also don't believe anyone can possibly roleplay a god-like mental stat to any accuracy. The telling thing is that no one is ever upset about representation of high stats, despite them being roleplayed inaccurately by a considerably higher margin.

TLDR; Mandatory 2 hour exams on the 3.5 weave if you want to roll a wizard.
susitsu wrote: Honestly, I'm concerned by anything people ask "for" rogue simply due to the higher skill players that run rogues and will further demolish other players more easily with that kind of stuff.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3382
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Cortex » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Sockss wrote:TLDR; Mandatory 2 hour exams on the 3.5 weave if you want to roll a wizard.
make it so
Scurvy wrote:This is a fine stance to have, but a little misplaced in a mechanics feedback thread, don'cha think?

yellowcateyes
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1258
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:02 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:46 pm

These kinds of topics are inflammatory as they easily veer into "you're doing it wrong" territory.

I would worry less about how other characters are roleplaying their character sheets, and instead focus on making your own characters memorable and impactful. Leave the assessment of whether a person is properly playing their character to the DMs making calls on RPR.

After years of playing on Arelith, I remember characters, plotlines, conflicts and moving moments. I don't remember whether Ryan Valtheran stat dumped WIS and/or whether he properly RP'ed it. Frankly, I don't care.

TimeAdept
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:50 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thanatosis wrote:tl;dr who cares?
The whole point of this thread is to find out who cares, and more importantly, whether it matters. And, looking through the answers, it looks like it does.

Also, that's such an odd response to a thread on a server that's depicted as a Roleplay server. If it were an Action server, I would completely agree with you. But here? We, the players, actually care.
Unless the DMs make a new rule saying WMs can't have negative stats, 95% of WMs and fighters and non-divine meleers, and rogues rolled on the server are going to have 8 wis and 8 cha, because we play point-buy system and not dice roll, and in order to make functional characters, you have to have low stats in places to have high stats in others.

This isn't a fight you'll ever win, and the people who have 8 wis and 8 cha are absolutely contributing and adding to the server - so don't waste your energy on base insults like "I THOUGHT THIS WAS AN RP SERVER!" There's better places for you to spend your time and energy constructively building a community than to lash out because you feel too many WMs dump wis and cha.

I generally notice, btw, that it's always people complaining about WMs with low wis and cha. People don't seem to care about the 8 dex clerics or blackguards or paladins, the 8 cha wizards, the 8 wis sorcerors, the 8 cha monks, the 8 str casters, or Totems who regularly end up with 4-6 in any and all physical stats when not in Power Ranger Furry Mode.
After years of playing on Arelith, I remember characters, plotlines, conflicts and moving moments. I don't remember whether Ryan Valtheran stat dumped WIS and/or whether he properly RP'ed it. Frankly, I don't care.
Bingo.

Griefmaker
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm
Location: California

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:55 pm

Sounds like Arelith just needs to give everyone 20 in each stat. No worries then about who has what since everyone will be the same and there will never be low wisdom or low dex or low charisma. That way too we don't need to worry about MAD classes since all of their needs are taken care of.

Yes I am being semi-facetious. But only a little.

TimeAdept
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 pm

We shouldn't be worrying if someone has 8 or 12 charisma to begin with. Are we truly quibbling that much? People, we got better things to worry about.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: East Coast

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:01 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:These kinds of topics are inflammatory as they easily veer into "you're doing it wrong" territory.

I would worry less about how other characters are roleplaying their character sheets, and instead focus on making your own characters memorable and impactful. Leave the assessment of whether a person is properly playing their character to the DMs making calls on RPR.
No one is arguing against this, nor is this thread intended to tell people how to RP their stats.

Realistically, most martial classes will have low mental stats like Wisdom. My curiosity isn't spawned from WHY that's so. That's blatantly obvious. Strength is better for a Fighter than Wisdom is.
I'm curious about the HOW a player deals with it. And whether it matters to the integrity of the roleplay on this server, which Titania answered. Without giving their battle plan away, she stated that RPB will be partially based on how well you roleplay your stats. Even if it's a little, it still matters, apparently.
Sockss wrote:You don't have access to someones character sheet, nor do you have a method of judging; so it's all fairly moot and reeks of elitism.
It's easy to resort to name-calling as soon as a thread arises concerning the matters of roleplay, but let's not go there. This thread was never created with elitism in mind, and I personally abhor that elitist attitude.


UPDATE: Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't there been a similar thread where the question was "Does roleplaying in dungeons matter anymore?" or something similar?
It seems whoever asked the question was of like mind and was genuinely interested in maintaining the immersion of our beloved server. Surely when several threads like these arise, threads about roleplay, it should raise a red flag to us as partakers of this server.

UPDATE #2: The above statement is just an observation, before you get all defensive on me. I know the answer already: "Be the solution you want to see."

User avatar
Dinosaur Space Program
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:30 am
Location: Under a rock.

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Dinosaur Space Program » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:56 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:I'm curious about the HOW a player deals with it.
I feel there is some flexibility in how things are portrayed. There are many ways to skin a cat, as the saying goes. I keep it simple personally.

I RP what's on my character's internal sheet of numbers.

Be it a dump stat of con, wis, int, or what-have-you. I don't believe having a good build negates your ability to RP your stats, but it does definitely put you in a niche as to how you can RP it. While there are a handful of ways to RP low or even high charisma, it's like the thirty-six ways to tell a story. There are boundaries.

It's the player's decision what boundaries they want.

As for people ignoring their stats. There are people who ignore their classes as well. It is intrinsically the same problem and it isn't for us players to police them. That and sometimes people do RP their stats and classes in a way that is not apparent to an outside observer to their RP.

In the end, the question isn't about mental stats, it is about our character sheets as a whole and what part they play. Are they an influence? A guide? A dogma? Everyone has a different take on this.

But I think it is safe to say, you should take it all into account and decide how You want to spin the things on that sheet and portray them. Sometime this will get across to people, sometimes your efforts will go unnoticed if you do something subtle. And this is why the server has a policy of not being heavy handed on it.

We are here for stories and interactions. I say as long as that part of the server continues to flourish, the pieces and parts that are the characters and their invisible sheets should stay exactly where it is right now. In the hands of the players (And the DMs when they do the blatantly bad things).
“The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!”
-Larry Niven

Historical Character List

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 792
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Ork » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:55 pm

Why do these threads always seem so judgemental. I know that wasn't your intent MissEvelyn, you seemed to have honest intentions, but the majority of people replying with negative responses almost seem resentful that min-maxing is a thing.

You harm yourselves when you judge or envy or despise other players on this server. You are not going to change anyone with harsh words, but you will burn yourself from enjoying this server.

Also, call the ambulance..thanatosis is shredding people alive.

Nitro
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by Nitro » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:48 pm

Honestly, stats in D&D and NWN are a bit silly anyway. 8 is described as below average, 10-12 as average and 14 as above average. Yet the difference between a character with 8 and 14 is just a 3 point modifier. A 15% chance at being worse at any given d20 roll.

It gets especially silly on Arelith as characters regularly reach scores of 30+ which are basically superhuman, as in stats that the vast majority of mortals would never have any hope of obtaining. If we police 8 WIS weaponmasters for not RP'ing their 'below average' wisdom, shouldn't we then also police 32 DEX rogues for not being ephemereal and feylike in their grace?

Playing your stats is good and all, but playing your character is even more important. Otherwise we'd end up with a very boring landscape where everyone is a genius savant, heavy weight champion or the prettiest person who ever lived.

TimeAdept
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:32 pm

18 in a stat is the limit of natural human ability, but due to the confluence of PCs in the area, the limit of natural human ability is much higher (as stats adjust dynamically to account for the new limits of human ability), compressing the curve down, meaning 13 int on Arelith might be 18 int elsewhere, so 8 cha on arelith is actually ~12-14 cha elsewhere.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:33 pm

Yeah. That's how I've always RP'd it.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

User avatar
WanderingPoet
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:51 am

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:08 am

In the end, what is important is
A) Are you having fun?
B) Are others having fun?
C) Are you telling a story you/others find interesting?

If you can mark off all those three, it matters a lot less what the numbers are, especially if you can't read other people's sheets. For me, roleplaying flaws is as fun as roleplaying strengths and adds more realism to my characters. Doesn't mean its the same for everyone though!
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

User avatar
DM Titania
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by DM Titania » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:21 pm

WanderingPoet wrote:In the end, what is important is
A) Are you having fun?
B) Are others having fun?
C) Are you telling a story you/others find interesting?

If you can mark off all those three, it matters a lot less what the numbers are, especially if you can't read other people's sheets. For me, roleplaying flaws is as fun as roleplaying strengths and adds more realism to my characters. Doesn't mean its the same for everyone though!
Yes, as a player, you really shouldn't care if the WM you are RPing with is RPing their stats right.
You should just focus on your own numbers, and making a memorable character around them.

For example, 8 INT doesn't have to mean can't speak properly like the campaign, though it's a common trope for half-orc players, but an interpretation of: Their Textbook knowledge is 50% inaccurate information, possibly claiming outright lies minotaurs are walking cow gods and elves are simply taller gnomes. There's no rules on how to RP Each stat in relative number ranges for a reason. Your stats are and should be a solid foundation of character molding, though you might have to stretch for your own fun, or for the sake of realism, as stated in the thread, what is considered "High" needs to be redefined a bit for Arelith.

RPing stats and your class are one aspect of considerations which can push you over to the next level, though in general, being memorable, fun and inclusive are always going to be more important.

To conclude, the answer to the OP is yes, but don't care about what other people are doing character-sheet wise. Just focus on having fun.
Please don't feed my sister.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: East Coast

Re: Do mental stats even matter?

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:20 pm

It's definitely refreshing to see so many good takes and perspectives on this topic. Also thank you Titania for the clear and succinct explanation.

And for the record I'm perfectly aware that even Weapon Masters can make memorable characters ;) I have personally met some great ones in my lifetime on here.

Post Reply