Kensai, why even legacy?

[Black Wendigo]

Actually I did. But you know, how can you judge kensai Role play when the class is so undefined? I know what kensai is supposed to be I guess. But I never saw that the mechanics were consistent in what kensai meant on Arelith.

[flower]

For me kensai was a way to play real marital art character who relies on his blade (and potions).

Why at all play a mundane type of meleer (fighter, WM, and alike), when you get here druids, who in epic dungeons tank all mobs at once, getting no damage inflcited on them trough EDR, regenerating via their spells, HPs twice than your meleers, having damage shields and stuff...
...or going spellsword, causing damage to multiple enemies, regenerating with the imbue, reaching high AC and with their modest HP pool barely going to wounded while your standart platemail warrior gets pummeled like some kind of sheep, has no spells / features, and gets 2 sklil points plus INt mod per lvl only, so its utility is even much lower.

There are more of these things currently active, which turn any party dungeon walk into just picking up loot. People complain on forum so often over WM's critics, but WM still gets hurt, hit back, unlike many other things reaching insane numbers in many aspects of game (AC, reductions, and alike).

[BegoneThoth]

It sounds to me like you guys didn't go kensai for the roleplay.

yeah i do like the kensai shrine in the woods, it's a good ic location to hang out in and discuss ways to RP suddenly having normal senses

[MissEvelyn]

For me kensai was a way to play real marital art character who relies on his blade (and potions).

Why at all play a mundane type of meleer (fighter, WM, and alike), when you get here druids, who in epic dungeons tank all mobs at once, getting no damage inflcited on them trough EDR, regenerating via their spells, HPs twice than your meleers, having damage shields and stuff...
...or going spellsword, causing damage to multiple enemies, regenerating with the imbue, reaching high AC and with their modest HP pool barely going to wounded while your standart platemail warrior gets pummeled like some kind of sheep, has no spells / features, and gets 2 sklil points plus INt mod per lvl only, so its utility is even much lower.

There are more of these things currently active, which turn any party dungeon walk into just picking up loot. People complain on forum so often over WM's critics, but WM still gets hurt, hit back, unlike many other things reaching insane numbers in many aspects of game (AC, reductions, and alike).

That really sums up the problem with getting rid of Kensai.

[rat0a]

It sounds to me like you guys didn't go kensai for the roleplay.

Yes I did mine was a some sort of arena fencer that to this day still carry
a large shield and studed armor even though I can get in hevy armor + tower shield and gain 3AC

When they staterd to do the changes I din’t mind because she was already level 30 and TBH I rarely take her out. She usually stays at Cordor supporting other PC but this last change really really gimped my Kensai for the fact that I build her with GEN1 stats.

[Astral]

Well, of course the last change was a direct brutal nerf, but lets remember that prior to that Kensai received +2 untyped ac, 1 apr, CLARITY and HASTE potions so its really unfair and probably not true to say kensai are currently weaker than GEN1.

[rat0a]

Well, of course the last change was a direct brutal nerf, but lets remember that prior to that Kensai received +2 untyped ac, 1 apr, CLARITY and HASTE potions so its really unfair and probably not true to say kensai are currently weaker than GEN1.

Agree

Just came back to the game a couple of weeks ago and noticed I was not permahasted but never bothered to check what was changed. I knew about the useless in my case listen/spot skills and less AC

I know my character is older (2012) and I rarely take her out
I still log her alot but now I ended with something worse than GEN1 in the eyes of everyone but me.
I realy enjoyed GEN 1 and if I have the chance I rather go back to that or a proper remake because
TBH even though I don’t take her out anymore my character is bad right now. Is even worse than a pure Arelith fihter

I think the Arelith team lost their way trying to patch the class
Kensai was fine without potion or other spellcasting classes like Paladin???

And I don’t need to be punished for GEN3 Kensai. When I signed for the class I made it al the way to 30 with a GEN1 after lotls of blood and tears

[BegoneThoth]

I think it got removed because of how difficult it is to balance new content/class changes as you had to WHATABOUT KENSAI with every change.

[Sab1]

You mean Gen1 the couldn't even use a raise dead scroll version? Gods that was a painful time, Rat0a has my respect if he made it to 30 with Gen1 kensai.

The last version the saves never should of been a thing. That seemed rather uneccessary to me. For Kensai I would of said free attack, spot/listen, and ac fine but I would of clamped down on what's mundane and cleaned that up some. For a displacer cloak imp invis to be mundane yet the SD shadow shield on their armor isn't, never made a lot of sense. Using item abilities seems like it should of been an all or nothing thing. The last version seemed like a lot of bonus without much sacrifice (like the PDK was). Make what could be used more restrictive and I think it would of helped a lot in getting some balance back to it.

[rat0a]

@Sab1
Yes I made it all the way to 30 with the ones that could not use raise scrolls
If you know GEN1 weakness you will be fine all the way to 20 after that you need to party with a caster and as long as you have a caster you will be fine

Man once Kira my Kensai went with a Tempurian party to the Aurulite Temple and something went so wrong, out of my party of 5 I was the only one on my feet so I had to grab everyone and ran like hell with me perma haste to Brog gates with two white dragons many frost giants and a bunch of trolls and made and saved the day of course I had to find someone to read the scrolls

This same Kensai on another raid to the banite temple my party died but I killed their cleric. In the end I died myself three against one isn’t fair but did the good fight.

If I could not kill something faster I used that permahaste to run and fight on another day

Now because I made her with GEN1 stats in mind with the removal of the class she is gimped hard

Not going to lie either playing a GEN1 was blood and tears lol

There was a fair warning about the Kensai class at the wiki so no one in their right mind would take a Gen 1 Kensai but TBH pnly a bunch GEN 1 made it to 30 including me and Bam Bam

[Griefmaker]

I had a GEN! kensai who also made it to level 30...and was MoD!

His secret was that he ended up having a few friends who were magical, so that helped shore up his weaknesses, but in general, he was usually their point man all the time when there was an adventure to be had.

[rat0a]

Yup after awhile you need a caster and like Griefmaker
I was point Woman in my group and went everywhere RDI Mannor, Abyss ect

By the way my respect to you with a MOD Kensai all the way to 30

[MissEvelyn]

Griefmaker, you're a god for making it to 30 on a MoD character.
Both you and rat0a have demonstrated that it's fully possible to enjoy a Kensai with a little help from friends. Something that is supposed to be encouraged on a multiplayer ROLEPLAY server, that is, sticking together. That's why I find it very odd that the team is so keen on eliminating paths and/or nerfing classes that don't solo well, but work extremely well in groups (like Weavemasters, to bring up a perfectly fine example).

[Cortex]

Old kensai was never good even in parties.

Weavemaster was removed due to other reasons.

[MissEvelyn]

Weavemaster was removed due to other reasons.

Reasons no Weavemaster player ever complained about, because it wasn't an issue for them. They knew what they got themselves into when they picked the path. The same goes for Kensai players.

The only ones who came up with said reasons and complaints were people who did not play the paths, primarily the same people who removed the paths.

[Thanatosis]

The problem with weavemaster wasn't the people who picked the path, it was trying to make challenging monster spawns for "traditional" casters and weavemasters both. So it got removed.

[Nitro]

The only ones who came up with said reasons and complaints were people who did not play the paths, primarily the same people who removed the paths.

Got any facts to back up that bold claim?

I've played dozens of kensai, throughout the various incarnations of them, and I still wholly support their removal. All of them had problems, from gen1 being straight up bad to the most recent ones being OP, balancing them without them being noticeably stronger or weaker than traditional melee builds is borderline impossible.

As for weavemasters, I love that class, most fun I've had as a sorcerer's been as a weavemaster but they also can't exist in the same space as vancian casters, because they trivialize PvE content by always having long, medium and short duration buffs online with a 100% uptime for the whole party, which when balanced to be countered, slaps down hard on regular wizards and sorcerers.

In short, even though ideas are neat, they don't always work out in practice.

[Hunter548]

Weavemaster was removed due to other reasons.

Reasons no Weavemaster player ever complained about, because it wasn't an issue for them. They knew what they got themselves into when they picked the path. The same goes for Kensai players.

The only ones who came up with said reasons and complaints were people who did not play the paths, primarily the same people who removed the paths.

You're focusing on the micro issues with the path. The reasons weavemaster (and kensai, for that matter) were removed were macro balance problems, as Thanatosis touched on: They were both too difficult/impossible to balance compared to the "vanilla" classes; Either they'd be too strong, in which case there's no reason to play a vanilla class, or too weak, in which case new players get trapped into a path without knowing what they're getting themselves into. Weavemaster added another dimension of it being extremely difficult to buff or nerf vanilla casters without affecting weavemaster directly, because of the shared spell list. Every spell change, in addition to a sort of mental exercise of "How does this help/hurt wizards" had to be run through an additional exercise of "How does this hurt/help weavemasters" regardless of if it was targetted at them. It tied developer hands as far as changing normal casters went. That's without getting into things like save bloat, or how having a weavemaster in the party removed any reason to have a vanilla caster in the party.

[rat0a]

Old kensai was never good even in parties.

Weavemaster was removed due to other reasons.

So say.......you?

I never gimped my party and as long as I had a mage or cleric all was fine

I can’t even count how many times I went to RDI and the Mannor. (daily and cost me my RPR but thatks another story) and I rarely died or put my party in trouble the only thing I required was a Clarity speel. All other thing I could handle most of the time

As a matter of fact I was sought after to go out there as a tank

I even made it to the 8 shackle at the pit fights on Andunor “with no wards”
Got unlucky wih a Crit IKD 60+ attack roll though lol

I did carry a few scolls so my party can read those to me and many many times I saved their 6

The problem with people who dislike Kensai is that their builds are based on potions scrolls and UMD
to do their thing and when they start to die they think “ I could have done it easy with this X potion”
If you are a person like that Do not play Kensai because you ain’t going to enjoy it and curse all he time on why I did this trashy Character

Now I won’t lie to you because I had the same mentality myself hell Kira was an experiment that was supposed to get deleted before level 10. But if you if you know where to play and think out of the box they are doable
You can even get to around level 20 soloing if you know where to go but granted you will die a bit more. You see my best weapon soloing was “when in doubt....run like hell” And I did that with my perma haste alot.

Like I said above I could even go heavy amor and tower shield with this Kensai and gain 2/3 AC but since I roplay her as a light fighter she was on adamite chainshirt /leather armor and a large greensteel shield all her career. I even choosed the called shot useless feat

Just recently I did enchant her adamite gear helmet, large shield and then. Boom a few months later Kensai cna use potion now lol what a waste of coin lol

Kesani to me was an “Expert” class made for people looking for the ultimate challenge if you like your UMD scrolls ect you are for a road of pain

All said above is based on GEN1 Kensai all the way to level 30

When the ARelith team started to insert mundane items on the loot matrix was already later for me because she was level 30 but I guess those items could have made my life more easier when I was playing her as a lowbee

[Seekeepeek]

I still have my lvl 30 Gen1 kensei, but I might pick her up again after the latest update. iam good with the most recent update but i do miss the 10 discipline. she'd knockdown bait now since she is a Halfling, and iam not delvling her to 24 to get epic skill focus. An other aspect is i nearly always play characters that have a way to speed them self up with spells or abilities, So whenever i play her i feel like a snail.. haha

I liked the alternative playstyle the gen1 offered, even if it was hard at times. Most of my other melee characters feels to much alike.

Cortex is right if your in a party with a mage that mass haste while rat0a is right if your not in a party with one... always felt irritated whenever someone hasted me constantly when the haste was hidden (no speed increase) and often found my self sending a frustrated tell at mages to make them stop wasting their spells on me since some of them didn't get the hidden haste thing on an ooc level.

[rat0a]

I still have my lvl 30 Gen1 kensei, but I might pick her up again after the latest update. iam good with the most recent update but i do miss the 10 discipline. she'd knockdown bait now since she is a Halfling, and iam not delvling her to 24 to get epic skill focus. An other aspect is i nearly always play characters that have a way to speed them self up with spells or abilities, So whenever i play her i feel like a snail.. haha

I liked the alternative playstyle the gen1 offered, even if it was hard at times. Most of my other melee characters feels to much alike.

Cortex is right if your in a party with a mage that mass haste while rat0a is right if your not in a party with one... always felt irritated whenever someone hasted me constantly when the haste was hidden (no speed increase) and often found my self sending a frustrated tell at mages to make them stop wasting their spells on me since some of them didn't get the hidden haste thing on an ooc level.

I'm in the same boat
Mine is KD bait as well currently because of the changes, my build used those extra points in something else and I'm hurting right now

Also the fact I lost the AC from permahaste hurts as well, even with Studded Armor or Addy chain shirt I hit 56 AC with improved expertise.

Granted I can use barskin and going heavy with tower shield I can compensate but then that's not her RP "AND" not what I signed for. I need to go even lower than level 24 to fix other thing that I lack right now and is not even worth it.

Why play again an Ex Kensai like everyone else FI/WM/RG?? My PC even though is special to me doesn't feel the same.

[Sab1]

I just see it as it went from really really hard to being really really easy.

Should of kept listen/spot, ac and maybe attack. Cut in half the mundane items. Just the mundane items being reduced would of balanced things out greatly. If a class like paladin/ranger/BG/druid/cleric/mage etc can cast spell, no kensai. Kensai should of been for the traditional non magic casting classes.

[MissEvelyn]

Weavemaster was removed due to other reasons.

Reasons no Weavemaster player ever complained about, because it wasn't an issue for them. They knew what they got themselves into when they picked the path. The same goes for Kensai players.

The only ones who came up with said reasons and complaints were people who did not play the paths, primarily the same people who removed the paths.

You're focusing on the micro issues with the path. The reasons weavemaster (and kensai, for that matter) were removed were macro balance problems, as Thanatosis touched on: They were both too difficult/impossible to balance compared to the "vanilla" classes; Either they'd be too strong, in which case there's no reason to play a vanilla class, or too weak, in which case new players get trapped into a path without knowing what they're getting themselves into. Weavemaster added another dimension of it being extremely difficult to buff or nerf vanilla casters without affecting weavemaster directly, because of the shared spell list. Every spell change, in addition to a sort of mental exercise of "How does this help/hurt wizards" had to be run through an additional exercise of "How does this hurt/help weavemasters" regardless of if it was targetted at them. It tied developer hands as far as changing normal casters went. That's without getting into things like save bloat, or how having a weavemaster in the party removed any reason to have a vanilla caster in the party.

Absolutely not denying what you're saying here. The class had problems. A friend and I discussed this very topic a few days ago and we agreed that the class could have gotten a DC nerf in all schools save for a focused one, or even prohibit a school or two based on focuses. I even suggested adding extra, different mobs whenever a party with a Kensai or WM would arrive to balance the dungeons against them. Oh and Favored Souls as well.

We were obviously just throwing out ideas, but the point is, rather than outright removing the paths, something better could have been done. It feels like the team just gave up on the classes.

As for the 'bold' claims, I can only make such statements based on what I've seen in the Arelith discord in the past. And it isn't pretty. Hatred for Weavemasters abounded plenty, and later it hit the Kensais too.

[flower]

...who cares for discord?

[Seekeepeek]

...who cares for discord?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone try to setup a RP or Action server were all communication runs over discord in EE. That's what the younger generation use in Mindcraft and such.