Surfacer races and seeing in the dark

[mazeofthorns]

I've been wondering about this since as a player of a drow I have been told about appropriate ways to RP being on the surface during the daylight.

What should I expect to see in RP from surfacers found in the UD?

The policy for Drow and UDr's on the surface makes complete sense to me. Drow aren't vampires and won't burst into flames, but it makes sense that sunlight would hurt their eyes, that they would get sunburned easily. The surface during daylight would be uncomfortable and avoided if at all possible.

My issue really is, the inverse should also be true.

THIS. We've got surfacers running around killing first asking questions second when any drow, duergar are on the surface but they can travel around in a place that you need to have ultra and intravision in order to get around with no problem?

Sure there are natural light sources but those are for the UD races and they aren't torches or sunlight. I have yet to see humans, hin, dwarves provide any RP about the fact that the dark underdark would cause them problems. And putting light on your gear would only allow for light around your person not for several feet around you. If you have ever been out in the country side at night with no moon light you know that your flash light doesn't do a damn thing for you if you shine it out in front of you. You have to shine it on your feet or just a little bit in front of you in order to keep the light from getting eaten by the darkness.

What say you? What is the appropriate RP for sufacers in the UD?

[Nitro]

It's very easy to get around darkness in a D&D setting. Enchant a ring with darkvision, cast light, equip a torch, equip a ring with a light property or just fall back on the good ol' ultravision wand.

And that's not even covering the races with low-light vision or darkvision, or the classes that get these as perks.

I don't think it's the darkness that would scare anyone coming down into the underdark, but the things that live there instead. Deadly mushrooms that produce spores to turn you into stone, poisoned water, the faezress messing with magic, and a whole plethora of monsters.

Most of course, which are things your average epic level adventurer has little reason to fear.

[LichBait]

A common complaint of my drow is that The Hub, and Andunor in general is too bright. But that's mostly an IC gripe. It's easier to see in the dark than to blot out the Sun, but I do think that the Surfacer stigma while being below is a little less stringent than the UDer stigma of being above. However, I nearly exclusively play UDers so my opinion may be (read: probably is) biased.

[Xanos950]

It's very easy to get around darkness in a D&D setting. Enchant a ring with darkvision, cast light, equip a torch, equip a ring with a light property or just fall back on the good ol' ultravision wand.

And that's not even covering the races with low-light vision or darkvision, or the classes that get these as perks.

I don't think it's the darkness that would scare anyone coming down into the underdark, but the things that live there instead. Deadly mushrooms that produce spores to turn you into stone, poisoned water, the faezress messing with magic, and a whole plethora of monsters.

Most of course, which are things your average epic level adventurer has little reason to fear.

^ all of this. Nuff said. topic solved.

[Hunter548]

I feel like a forum thread that's not so subtly complaining about other players isn't a good way to ask about this, but:

Ultravision is a really easy fix for the seeing the dark issue. Lots of surface races have the ability to see in the dark as well as UD races do anyways: Dwarves and Half Orcs both have Darkvision. Elves have low light vision (Which won't be perfect for the underdark, but means they can operate with less light than a human would need).

Keep in mind that Andunor is also populated by a not-insubstantial population of humans, and thus probably is fairly well lit to begin with. Most of this only goes for the 'wilderness' areas of the Underdark.

[Sab1]

UD is scary, but it's more about what might be lurking in the darkness over actual the darkness. I mean surfacers do experience darkness so it's not a total shock compared to full sunlight to someone not use to it. Is it worse to walk into a room that's pitch black or be in total darkness and have someone suddenly turn the lights on? You should expect torches to be out, light spells, light on gear etc,, to help one see.

[AngelicReaper]

It's very easy to get around darkness in a D&D setting. Enchant a ring with darkvision, cast light, equip a torch, equip a ring with a light property or just fall back on the good ol' ultravision wand.

And that's not even covering the races with low-light vision or darkvision, or the classes that get these as perks.

See this kinda bugs me. Ultrivision to me is like having maybe night vision goggles on in real life. I want to say someone who has done over 100-night operations over an active military career... that, crap still sucked Pufferfish trying to see in super dark... its even worse if there is -any- form of light. Cause then they were almost useless.

Ultrivision when in magical darkness is still a pain to see things. It allows you to see the outline of all the creatures kinda close to yeah and at the same time, its dark as Pufferfish all else around you. Not to mention with the hundreds of humans roaming the UD, I rarely see them with ultravision ... maybe see inveso. So how again are they able to see in the dark? Cause eh... the darkness aint whats inveso.

Now... if it is as simple as saying a single spell can beat out the deep darkness where the sun doesn't shine... then by rights, the human body's eyes and brain needs only 72 hours in a controlled environment to adjust to the suns gamma rays of light. Not to perfection, but to the point they can tolerate the suns light... And with as much light as there seems to be in the UD? And these are magical humans/drow/etc? Less then a couple days and they wouldn't even need sunglasses.

Now reverse that... a human in complete darkness loses a sense of sight. To compensate the other senses of the human body pick up -untill- the adjustment of the eyes can be made. This can take hours to days. If this doesn't happen the brain goes into a state of panic, and insanity tends to take effect.


But hey... magic can make anything happen right? Well, right! If a spell can let u see in the dark, then a spell can help u see in the day!

[flower]

Races of UD running in daylight will instantly break immersion.

Let it be major award for some kind of surface drow (aka eiliatraen) who dwells above ensuring it would be rare but certainly not common thing especially for murderous squads roaming surface in day light.

[AngelicReaper]

Well if I was to make a suggestion to this whole ordeal, then perhaps would be this. Surface races including humans from the surface when going into the Underdark get the blind effect on them unless they have this "ultravision" cast on themselves. If not then they are clearly blind where they shouldn't belong. Now the humans that do belong in the UD clearly having lived in the UD outcasts and slaves and what doesn't need it. Now humans that spend time say.... month or so in game time starts to learn to see in the UD without the spell. Like learning a language. So want to play a humen in the UD? Then learn to see in the dark.

Or make it some kind of one of those roll %s to make a human that doesn't need it either...

And vis-versa for UD races to the surface.

[taoofbalance]

I feel like a forum thread that's not so subtly complaining about other players isn't a good way to ask about this, but:

Ultravision is a really easy fix for the seeing the dark issue. Lots of surface races have the ability to see in the dark as well as UD races do anyways: Dwarves and Half Orcs both have Darkvision. Elves have low light vision (Which won't be perfect for the underdark, but means they can operate with less light than a human would need).

Keep in mind that Andunor is also populated by a not-insubstantial population of humans, and thus probably is fairly well lit to begin with. Most of this only goes for the 'wilderness' areas of the Underdark.

^ That. +1

I don't really think the whole seeing or not seeing in darkness thing as an issue. Also, comparing magical sight to modern day technology also seems out of place. Suspension of disbelief is a mandatory D&D tool.

[Cybernet21]

Races of UD running in daylight will instantly break immersion.

Let it be major award for some kind of surface drow (aka eiliatraen) who dwells above ensuring it would be rare but certainly not common thing especially for murderous squads roaming surface in day light.

UD races get weakened on sunlight already,what would break immersion is them suddenly not being able to even be touched by the sun
EDIT:Get weakened lore wise,plus on the wiki article about orogs it says they are perfect warriors for daylight raids on the Surface for not beign weakened by it,Gnolls too .

On the surfacers in the UD topic,i believe the darkness thing was brought up some times already,and i agree with what Nitro said

[Durvayas]

To be honest, I kinda really get where the OP is coming from with this. I've been playing a human recently, and one of the first things that happened when I pulled out a torch in a cave was my PC was asked: "What do you need a torch for?"

I'm still playing the only human I can think of in a very long time that actually uses torches in the dark. I occasionally see them with rings of light, or light spells, but it seems to me, as a player, that the issue of it being dark has been handwaved by the majority. I stongly doubt that everyone has darkvision on their helmets.

My experience so far, has been that denizens of the UD(especially drow) are expected to roleplay the light of the environment being an issue on the surface, but no such requirement is held or enforced on surface PCs in the dark. It seems to smack of a double standard, and I'm not fond of it.

[flower]

Penalties listed in lore are laughtable.

Second. Culture. Beside Vhaerun most Drow for example are led to hate and fear sun. Also priests and mages can toy with divine with crippling any drow force.

That drow cannot raid during day is awsome. out know you cannot run into one on day and fear night.

I don't see issue in surfacers coming down and see. But in lack of features for races native to UD.

What do I mean? I will list comparison with drow but it applies to any light sensitive UD native race:

Drow
+ Gets +4 ability SR darkness
-reatricted to one settlement
-higher to requirements from team
-restricted movement on module
-must use disguise to stay unknown

Human outcast
+Unlimited access (unless own actions prevent it)
+Can use UD features
+Cannot be identified unless known as criminal
+Restricted only by PCs (if ever), possible exile. City NPCs will not hostile him like ud races and even trade
+Can get +4 abilitities, can get also mnor gift (darkness). Also gets free feat and 30 skill points



You clearly see that picking drow is only choice of flavor (goes for all UD native races and monster races which while common on surface have PCs restricted to UD).

[Nitro]

Let's not forget that the only surface races who don't have any form of low-light vision are humans and halflings. Elves and half elves get low-light vision and half-orcs, gnomes and dwarves get straight up darkvision. (Funnily, Kobolds and goblins on Arelith don't have Darkvision because they have halfling as base race, a mechanical constraint I know but still funny)

Further, if the human or halfling has levels in Palemaster, RDD or Shadowdancer they also get darkvision, further increasing the availability of non-magical darkvision. So:

Well if I was to make a suggestion to this whole ordeal, then perhaps would be this. Surface races including humans from the surface when going into the Underdark get the blind effect on them unless they have this "ultravision" cast on themselves. If not then they are clearly blind where they shouldn't belong. Now the humans that do belong in the UD clearly having lived in the UD outcasts and slaves and what doesn't need it. Now humans that spend time say.... month or so in game time starts to learn to see in the UD without the spell. Like learning a language. So want to play a humen in the UD? Then learn to see in the dark.

This would make sense, if the script was smart enough to recognize if the target was a human or halfling without any classes that give darkvision and also recognized any sources of light, spell, item, party member or even environmental, then also take into account spells like true-seeing and ultravision as well as items with the darkvision property.
And for good measure, also polymorphs into umber hulks, dragons or any of the shifter forms with enhanced vision.

This sounds like a lot of work for what basically boils down to "just RP that you can't see squat if you don't have a light source".

[Cybernet21]

Some of us are kinda derailing the thread to UD races and sunlight(including me) instead of speaking of surface races seeing in the dark ,also OP was asking for what is good Surfacer RP in the Underdark,this is not a feedback forums post So let us all try to stick to answering OP's question.

As i said before,i am with Nitro on this,any high level (late teens,low epics) character would have a way to use something to light his way and darkness wouldnt be what scares them (unless of course you RP a character that is afraid of the Dark).

[Xanos950]

Guys... You have to finally realize that the Underdark isn't dark y'all. It's full of glowing flora and fauna that illuminate entire caverns. Thing is those "light-sources", though literally everywhere, make you a target for monsters that roam the Underdark so drow and other denizens would stick to the shadows and use those light sources for guidance to not lose their path.

Also... Light sources, just like the food/rest/water meter are obnoxious things that don't matter for any adventurer as they're just part of book-keeping. We -don't- need more annoying book keeping. How about you just rp being afraid in the dark? Wait you're not? Well, maybe a lvl 30 epic character has no reason to worry.

[JediMindTrix]

My experience so far, has been that denizens of the UD(especially drow) are expected to roleplay the light of the environment being an issue on the surface, but no such requirement is held or enforced on surface PCs in the dark. It seems to smack of a double standard, and I'm not fond of it.

Pretty much agree.
Never been fond of Drow being expected to behave like vampires either. or treated as such by DM's. It makes me take the server less seriously lorewise tbh

[flower]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/B ... r%27s_Dale

Drow forces were blinded by rising sun and forced on retreat.

There is no single reason UD drow would choose to fight during day light. There are surface dwelling drow walking in daylight, and some groups / cities operate on surface/day light too.

But this is not case of Arelith.

[-XXX-]

U L T R A V I S I O N

[One Two Three Five]

Hey guys can we maybe use the question forum for questions instead of an escalating series of thinly veiled player criticisms between surface and UD personalities

[Baron Saturday]

Hey guys can we maybe use the question forum for questions instead of an escalating series of thinly veiled player criticisms between surface and UD personalities

You've been on these forums long enough to know the answer to that!

(I appreciate the effort, though.)

[Nitro]

Just rest easy knowing that no matter how bad it might get, it was still worse back in the day when the UD had a separate subforum. That was a regular old clown-fiesta of us vs them.

[One Two Three Five]

Oh yeah. The one that got shut down because the UD version of the character art thread turned into softcore porn right. Good times.

[TimeAdept]

Oh yeah. The one that got shut down because the UD version of the character art thread turned into softcore porn right. Good times.

link yo

[Nitro]

You'll have to dig through the old forums via the wayback machine and hope it has a version of the thread cached if you wanna see that.