Surfacer races and seeing in the dark

[susitsu]

The Drow should fear the humans who walk the Underdark.

[mazeofthorns]

OK let me clarify a little better. The subject is not UDers on the surface. The subject is about surfacers in the UD.

This was not intended to be a 'Hey everyone from the surface just cast a spell and amazing! I can see just like a drow.'

What I was hoping for was some ideas on how surfacers might RP their time in a place that is DARK. And since this in an RP server possibly give some ideas to others who have characters who might venture down below.

I am just seeing a lot of what could be really great RP ignored due to mechanical means. Sure say you can use ultravision and yay you can see in a pitchblack room. BUT what about before you cast that spell? What about when it goes down?

Hey it's your character, you don't want to bother with that kind of RP? That's fine but I would urge you to consider what you are missing out on.

[One Two Three Five]

I mean the answer to any actual question posed in this sort of 'people aren't RPing right' thread- and if that's not what it is, I apologize, but it hits the same notes as the recent threads in here that absolutely are- is, uh..

"RP discomfort or fear as it suits your character, the end."

That's it. That's all. That's the answer. There's no one-size fits all solution to fear in a setting where you can fight literal nightmares and actual demons by the mid-levels. The sort of gritty Veins Of The Earth feel a lot of people want from the Underdark is, sadly, at odds with the High Fantasy Robots And Samurai Fighting Devils And Time Traveling Yeerks feel the rest of FR has as a kitchen sink/high fantasy/elminster showoff land setting.

[Baron Saturday]

Hey now. I will defend the importance of time-traveling Yeerks to the death, regardless of setting.

[flower]

The Drow should fear the humans who walk the Underdark.

Don't majority of them already do that, lol?

[Aodh Lazuli]

What I was hoping for was some ideas on how surfacers might RP their time in a place that is DARK.

I am just seeing a lot of what could be really great RP ignored due to mechanical means. Sure say you can use ultravision and yay you can see in a pitchblack room. BUT what about before you cast that spell? What about when it goes down?

Guys... You have to finally realize that the Underdark isn't dark y'all. It's full of glowing flora and fauna that illuminate entire caverns.

Once again, with emphasis... The underdark is not pitch black. It is darker, but for the most part not completely devoid of light.

[flower]

https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=339443
https://delving-in-the-dark.obsidianpor ... -underdark

[Freyason]

I mean.. artist wasn't gonna get paid for

[Hunter548]

That's also not what the underdark is like. The Fungi are bioluminescent, drow use faerie fire as direction in the visible spectrum, etc.

You can find absolute blackness in any sufficiently deep cave. The Underdark isn't scary because it's dark, it's scary because everything down there is different and non-intuitive and most of the inhabitants want to eat you.

[kainshots]

I honestly want to know where the idea that the underdark isn't dark came from. The campaign settings for forgotten realms describe it as lightless. And that light sources are far and few between. yes there are bio-luminescent fungi, but it's not like they're in every single tunnel. If they were not all the races that lived in the underdark would rely on darkvision or another sense entirely. The idea that drow use faerie fire to light things in the visible spectrum so everyone can see is. . . odd, and again I can't find it in any of my books so I'd appreciate if you could point that one out for me. Why would they bother with visible light when they don't need it for that purpose? Like all of the horror stories of the underdark and why you shouldn't go down there, revolves all around it being dark, silent, and unsettling because of it. Not that I agree/disagree with anything else in the thread but I am seriously wondering where the idea that the underdark isn't dark came from beyond just artwork that by necessity only pictures things with light sources.

I think the best real-world comparison to get an idea of how it's described darkness wise would be the bottom of the ocean. It's pitch black, sunlight doesn't pierce it. Yes there are bio-luminescent fish that give off light, but they're not everywhere and it's used to lure prey. If you're in the underdark relying on the bio-luminescence of various things, you're probably the prey being lured.

As I said, I just tried finding a source for the 'the underdark is lit up all over' and I can't find it so if someone could point that out for me, I'd appreciate it. I always love learning something I missed before lore-wise, and this would be a big one.

[Nitro]

Check out the War of the Spider Queen series, where the whole city is described as a caleidoscope of different coloured lights provding dim illumination. If you think about it, it's easy to attribute to darkvision. Seeing everything in black and white all the time would be dull as hell.

[Sab1]

Drow might be able to operate just fine in a totally dark city. But when you look at a typical drow city about half the inhabitants are slaves etc., which can't see in darkness as good as a drow can. So they need some illumination. There might be a lot of dark tunnels and caverns, but from the sounds of it there are also plenty of places with glowing fungi and such. I always remember drow using faerie fire as a way to light their targets and a way to follow people. yeas going in some place that totally dark is scary, but again it's what's lurking in the darkness is what scares people more.

I was camping and when I had to walk from my tent to the campsite in the dark, and I had no flashlight, it was spooky, when I heard a coyote howl is when I really began to worry.

[All The Sinners Saints]

Humans with ultravision from a wand/potion/spell have superior vision in darkness compared to drow in the UD. Not sure why this is a problem.

[Intrepid42]

This is one of those things where there is a lot of "hand-wavium" and custom rules.

As others have stated, if we want a "Default Non-Arelithian Faerun Underdark Illumination Situation Report", here goes:

Vast portions of the Underdark are wastelands devoid of food, water, and even light.
Except for any lanterns that characters bring into the caves, the Underdark is absolutely dark.
...
While most of the Underdark is exactly that, some locales possess sources of natural illumination.

Source: "Underdark", 3.5e, p106-107

The source also mentions various rules and suggestions for being spotted/ambushed from afar if you're carrying a light source, and various sources of natural light, including luminescent growths, molten rock, radiant crystal, reflective stone and wizard fire.

I imagine that well-trafficked/inhabited areas would be more likely to possess natural or artificial illumination.

However, if you really want Survival Mode, I'd be more worried about the air quality than getting eaten in the dark.

[Cortex]

isnt the air quality represented by spores already

[Intrepid42]

isnt the air quality represented by spores already

If we're going full by-the-source book survival rules, then we have predictable and mitigate-able biological spore clouds in-game already.

But then we would also need geothermal fumes, both irritating, poisonous and explosive, especially for anyone carrying torches. With varying ability to avoid prior, as well as save vs effect.

The majority of the Underdark is well-ventilated (for obvious plot reasons) due to vast subterranean spaces, vegetation and the occasional plantar portal to the Elemental Plane of Air. But the true survivalist needs poor air in a minority of places. Ranging from stale air, with cumulative exhaustion/non-lethal damage effects, to full-on depleted air with slow suffocation effects. Largely predictable (avoid narrow passages with poor ventilation) but hard to mitigate.

Then there is exposure from wading through cold/freezing water. Plus heat dangers in any chamber with exposed magma.

Surfacers (and locals) have far harder-to-avoid issues than lack of light.

However, as others have stated, this isn't a hard core Underdark Survival Simulation (drat!)

Through various hand-waving exercises, the paths represented in-game clearly avoid the worst of the suffocation/burning-hot magma hazards, and represent a relatively safer (and apparently better illuminated) perspective of the Underdark.

If I wanted to gate Underdark difficulty by Surface/Underdark origin, I would consider having a few nasty environmental hazards, bypassed by the hidden paths that the Surface has at present. Plus I'd collapse a tunnel and open up a new passage occasionally. Which those living in the Underdark are more able to stay uptodate with than those visiting.

I'm not personally in favour of this. But if I wanted to do this, then something like this may require less staff energy than enforcing RP rules about Surfacer behaviour in the dark.

[mazeofthorns]

As I am able to wander in more areas in the UD I want to give kudos' to the dev team for the fantastic features such as poison mushrooms, gouts of flame that will burn you, crystals that resonate to a bone shattering degree and the minions that pop out of nowhere to attack you.

As for how 'light', come on how many have their gamma set so they can see more? Not to mention that this is a game and you can't just make it realistic since very few would really be able to see things on their monitor screen.

It would be great if Beamdog reads these posts and gets some great ideas for how they might make the UD more immersive. It should be a place of beautiful and deadly wonder for all races.

One of the things I appreciated about Amia was the way they set up pathways in the UD. In order to travel further down into the UD you had to be a UD race or your character was thrust randomly to the next area when traveling through a transition. Basically your character got lost. Good times.

[Anatida]

I was told OOCly by another player while on a DM quest to the surface that "It is considered bad form for drow to be on the surface during daylight." Now this implied to me that such is generally frowned upon by the server as a whole and DMs.

So, simply put, why isn't the same true of surface races visiting the UD? IE bad form/poor roleplay for the PC to have no trouble with the environment.

[DarkDreamer]

Drow are specifically cursed by Corellon to be unable to move in daylight, that is actual Cannon Lore in the Forgotten Realms. They were banished from him to never see the light of day and bask in its glory.

[Nitro]

I was told OOCly by another player while on a DM quest to the surface that "It is considered bad form for drow to be on the surface during daylight." Now this implied to me that such is generally frowned upon by the server as a whole and DMs.

So, simply put, why isn't the same true of surface races visiting the UD? IE bad form/poor roleplay for the PC to have no trouble with the environment.

Because it's not about surface vs underdark and creating an artificial split, it's about Drow, Svirfneblin and Orogs (in order of sensitivity) avoiding the sun like the plague it is to them as per Irongron's announcement a while back: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8569

[Anatida]

Drow are specifically cursed by Corellon to be unable to move in daylight, that is actual Cannon Lore in the Forgotten Realms. They were banished from him to never see the light of day and bask in its glory.

That makes sense. Thank you! Its been so long since I 'learned' drow lore that I forget the parts i dont use regularly.

[Freyason]

This pic of glowworms in cave in new Zealand reminded me of this thread