Pirates and UD races

[Beneidalus]

Yet to be corrected by a DM. I can't help but wonder now, too, if the DM's that "don't hesitate to hit the hurt button" are those that are no longer with us, due to issues just like this.

[Baron Saturday]

I'm honestly baffled as to how you think this statement supports your argument.

Drow, are most unaccustomed to daylight, and while they may not always share the fear of the surface felt by many svirfneblin, they're physical transformation at the hand of the Elven Patheon, has left them almost entirely unable to operate in daylight. This race, more than any other should expect DMs to take a dim view of daylight activity.

(Emphasis added.)

[Durvayas]

I'm honestly baffled as to how you think this statement supports your argument.

Drow, are most unaccustomed to daylight, and while they may not always share the fear of the surface felt by many svirfneblin, they're physical transformation at the hand of the Elven Patheon, has left them almost entirely unable to operate in daylight. This race, more than any other should expect DMs to take a dim view of daylight activity.

(Emphasis added.)

I added extra emphasis to the most relevant part.

The DMs don't want you traipsing around the surface willy nilly. If your PC is on the surface, your drow needs to be sticking to the shadows. You need to be emoting great discomfort. I'm talking nausea, near blindness, extreme headache, the shakes, etc. Your PC wants to avoid combat, like any sane person suffering those conditions, and get underground. There will be times where you are stuck somewhere where you can't get underground during the day, like if you find yourself in the lost desert or the SW portion of the island near the swamps. Emote your discomfort appropriately and carry on, but be looking for a cave or shelter to hide from the sun in. Follow these guidelines and you're fine. I've been playing drow that go onto the surface for quite some time, even had one living near sibiyad for a while. And I've never been smited, blinded, etc, by a DM.

Drow have very limited tolerance to light, but can take torchlight. So the first two hours of the day(that is to say, dawn, when the sun is still rising and red) and the last two hours of the day(dusk, sunset) you can generally get away with your drow being on the surface.
Your PC's tolerance is also dependant on weather. Overcast and raining will be more tolerable than blue and sunny. The flash of lightning is a needle in your PC's eye though, so be wary of storms.
Scurry towards the dark like a cockroach after hour 9 at the latest. Emerge from it around hour 19 at the earliest. Your PC will still have watery eyes and some discomfort even during dawn and dusk, so don't forget to emote it, but your PC will be functional.

[Seekeepeek]

Your statement that Drow get temporary blindness and an attack bonus penalty in forgotten realms is not wrong Beneidalus, but this is a Arelith specific setup. "when in rome do as the romans do"

[Beneidalus]

Dramatic cockroach analogies aside, Durvayas is on the right track.

Less on the right track, is nitpicking at quotes from a bygone admin team and era. There's been plenty of misinformation on the wiki, or policies straight-up redacted over the years. Proud to say I'm a fan of most of 'em. Just because something has been done one way, that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, or even that it's the "right" way to do it.

Prime example is is Irongron's post regarding the races. "Almost entirely unable to operate in daylight."

Does this mean you can't exist in sunlight, like some kind of vampire? No, of course it doesn't, despite the comparison being drawn on more than one occasion. One doesn't have to hiss, cower, and flee, at the sun, and it's unfair to those that might not know any better, that people continue to overstate the relationship between light and drow. It builds false expectations, and needlessly hinders Roleplay.

And I mean Roleplay. Because what I'm not saying is that a Drow ought to be allowed to walk around midday, as long as they do a *Squints* emote every six minutes. Really, unless they have a reason to bite-the-bullet, why would a Drow wish to be in sunlight at all? This boils down to Purpose and Good Roleplay. Mechanics should be flavoring Roleplay, not disabling it.

In the same way that it's in poor taste for elves to come hunting for drow in the UD, for no other reason than PvP, it's obviously not in good taste for a Drow to go topside, and linger in the sun, looking for someone to attack.

Now on the other hand, you're an assassin, and you've aligned all the right pieces to snatch your target in an side street alley, but it's daylight hours? Screw it, bite-the-bullet and take the chance. There's a foundation of roleplay and and storytelling purpose, to warrant it. You don't need to flee hissing at the sun. Just emote it properly before and after. Of course, if possible, it makes sense to try to arrange assassinations and surface raids, at night, but that's not always how it happens. Sometimes you start at night, and things carry over into daylight hours. Ya roll with the punches, and start to withdraw as opportunity allows. Dropping everything to suddenly flee at that very moment, though, is just silly. So is thinking you have to spam magical darkness, or else the only option is to give into dramatics, and shamelessly flee.

Moreover, I'm not saying it should be okay for a Drow to aimlessly wander in the sun (let's say a Good aligned Drow), desperately looking for buddies to RP with, who aren't the Evil UD Breed. Again, not saying that should be the norm, but on the other hand, if your surfacer contact can only meet at some daylight hour to talk with you, are you going to needlessly decline because the setting is sunny? Maybe you wish to play your Drow as hypersensitive, but the answer here doesn't have to be yes. Meet your contact, and just emote some discomfort accordingly. Enhance the roleplay, don't disable it. Linger in the shadow of a nearby building, or tree, if possible, but if not. Don't worry about it. Just emote the discomfort, then retreat to the safety of the dark once it's all said and done.

[Sab1]

If I am not mistaken sunlight is suppose to be extremely painful for drow, not just a nuisance but painful.

[One Two Three Five]

It's supposed to melt their equipment too isn't it? I haven't read a Drizzt book since I started reading books for adults but I'm pretty sure it melts their stuff.

[Hunter548]

It's supposed to melt their equipment too isn't it? I haven't read a Drizzt book since I started reading books for adults but I'm pretty sure it melts their stuff.

Yeah, but adamantine doesn't really have much relationship to the FR material on Arelith. It technically should be some heavy DR/DR piercing, not AC and ab/damage

[Durvayas]

Not quite. Until the events of the 'starlight and shadows' series of books, drow were unable to use magic on the surface due to the curse of corellon, and their enchanted items, taken out of the feazress of the underdark, would slowly lose their magical properties outside of the UD. The pace at which that happens is greatly accelerated in sunlight. If your magically razor sharp and hard weapon is suddenly entirely dispelled in sunlight, I can see how one might think of it as melting.

[Intrepid42]

My personal concern about this issue is theme.

Having a lone Jarlaxle-like character hanging out on his pirate ship, supported by a crew of expendable surface-hires, wearing a foppishly-large and heavily enchanted hat, hanging out in his finely-appointed cabin, is fine. Cool, even.

But having surface pirates dominated by Drow Houses, sailing across the briney deep beneath the endless vault of sky, it's inescapable scorching sun touching all who do not cower in the hold, is thematically troubling.

I imagine the eventual "steady state" would be somewhat between these two extremes, of course. I am happy to defer to staff, who clearly have long practice at nudging player behaviour into thematically-not-too-jarring limits.

[nobs3]

I also think:

- over all I it might have some good effects (places for evil humans on surface, helping ship rp)
- maybe there might be more to follow (further restrictions on outcasts, UD piracy...) (the same argument "we would risk war with Cordor" could be used in the UD "we would risk war with drow houses (also NPC) and monster tribes)
-> So lets see what happens

Also I want to point out:

- Captain Horag is hireing close to everyone. The aim is to make ship/pirate rp open for everyone in the UD (most of all drow and monster races). See the message board in the Hub.

- And: Why should it be more risky to command monsters than evil humans as a captain? Its just a matter of culture sensible leadership to keep in control. Evil humans and monsters have the same potential to betray you.

[ActionReplay]

Myconid Pirates.

[Sab1]

Myconid Pirates.

if I ever get a major reward, I so know what I am asking for now.

[One Two Three Five]

Too bad they can only sail sporeadically

[cptcuddlepants]

They're pretty funguys to sail with, though.

[nobs3]

Skeleton/ alhoon/ ghost pirate ship lead by captain Lich

[Xuuldar]

The policy for Drow and UDr's on the surface makes complete sense to me. Drow aren't vampires and won't burst into flames, but it makes sense that sunlight would hurt their eyes, that they would get sunburned easily. The surface during daylight would be uncomfortable and avoided if at all possible.

My issue really is, the inverse should also be true. If Drow, and other UD races to varying degrees, should avoid daylight and have to roleplay discomfort/fear/limited functionality in daylight, then why does a human or other surface race that does not have eyes attuned to the dark, no form of dark vision, not have to RP being uncomfortable in the UD and always have to carry a torch or some form of light source? There is a pretty big disparity on the server in regards to surface and UD. Monster races have to avoid daylight and RP discomfort and limited functionality on the surface during the day but Surfacers have no such restriction in the darkness of the UD. Drow and Monster races can't be pirates because Senclif is a surface place with surfacers and they would not want to have monsters on their crew or be around monsters but the same surfacers can walk around a monster race controlled city full of monsters with no issues like they own the place.

I totally get the outcast system and honestly see this change as a good thing that will give outcasts a home outside of the UD, but it still highlights the imbalance that many have complained about over the years.

[ForgottenBhaal]

The main reason there is such an influx of humans down in the underdark is because there was a lack of an 'evil' settlement which they could settle down into with relative ease. It was always a big problem holding onto something on the surface, as every other settlement would band together against it.

I know that humans are very disliked in the underdark, and I understand that. But uh, the Drow RP, and Orog RP might not be for everyone. People are more comfortable playing something closer to them, while they flirt with the exotic.

(That said, I'm still for underdark pirates. Dread mage goblins please.)

[Nitro]

My issue really is, the inverse should also be true. If Drow, and other UD races to varying degrees, should avoid daylight and have to roleplay discomfort/fear/limited functionality in daylight, then why does a human or other surface race that does not have eyes attuned to the dark, no form of dark vision, not have to RP being uncomfortable in the UD and always have to carry a torch or some form of light source?

I don't doubt that DM's do look out for regular humans with no forms of low-light vision strolling around the caves like it's nothing, but the thing is that it's very easy to get around that. Enchant a ring with darkvision, cast light, equip a torch, equip a ring with a light property or just fall back on the good ol' ultravision wand.

[Xuuldar]

My issue really is, the inverse should also be true. If Drow, and other UD races to varying degrees, should avoid daylight and have to roleplay discomfort/fear/limited functionality in daylight, then why does a human or other surface race that does not have eyes attuned to the dark, no form of dark vision, not have to RP being uncomfortable in the UD and always have to carry a torch or some form of light source?

I don't doubt that DM's do look out for regular humans with no forms of low-light vision strolling around the caves like it's nothing, but the thing is that it's very easy to get around that. Enchant a ring with darkvision, cast light, equip a torch, equip a ring with a light property or just fall back on the good ol' ultravision wand.

Don't get me wrong, I agree. Past the ease of producing a light source I doubt anyone, including DMs, ever even think about it because the fact is, the module is bright enough to see with or without a light source or special vision and their is no written policy on it. But even with a light source and/or unltravision, the UD is not their natural home. Even with some light it would still be an uncomfortable scary place. They are a transplant into a strange place full of monsters. There are people that demand that UD races run from the daylight and RP being affraid to go out in the light, but to me it's a two way street. I am not saying there needs to be a bunch of RP restrictions and policing of Surfacers in the UD, but I don't their should be for the UDr's either. their should be a balance to how they are treated.

I know there are limitations that probably do not make it possible but I would love to see some small mechanical penalties both directions. I would also love for UDr's to be auto hostile on the surface with loosened PVP RP requirements and the same for Non-outcast surfacers in the UD. It would make going either direction scary. Pirates likewise could have a seperate faction where once reaching a certain level of infamy would go hostile to one or the other or both the surface and UD. It would also add some use to disguise/spot and make it more than just changing a name. It would also add usefulness to a lot of skills, spells, and abilities that are rendered worthless in the current chat-chat-duel system of PVP. I know most of this can't happen and/or never will happen, but personally I think it would add a layer of immersion, RP, and fun.

[LichBait]

I would also love for UDr's to be auto hostile on the surface with loosened PVP RP requirements and the same for Non-outcast surfacers in the UD.

Used to be like that. Awful.. awful time. 0/10 Would not recommend.

[One Two Three Five]

It was bad on both sides. Bad decision to do so in the first place, rightfully reversed.

[Hunter548]

But even with a light source and/or unltravision, the UD is not their natural home. E

Goblins, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, Ogres and Kobolds are in the same boat. Not a single one of these races is any more native to the Underdark than humans are.

And yeah, we had auto-hostile of underdarkers to surfacers. It lead to a lot of unintentional PVP violations because of summons, to lots of really hairtrigger pvp, to people metagaming the other side a lot, and it generally was awful and horrible. It didn't make the other side scared, it was pretty close to what we have right now except with even more tribalism between surface/UD players and salt/hurt feelings.