druid vs. totem druid

[caldura firebourne]

is there a reason beyond RP to pick a vanilla druid over a totem druid?
It seems the druid special path is the go to for every druid build on arelith, making it not so special

are there any plans to make vanilla druids more viable in the future, or is this a non issue?

[Lorkas]

One of the druid builds suggested by some now is a pure druid (for monolithic elemental shapes) that builds to reach 22 base CON to get epic damage reduction (which is active in elemental shape, and synergizes pretty well with the other elemental abilities). That would be difficult (or impossible?) to do as a totem.

This seems to be stronger in the end than a totem druid, though a totem might have an easier time leveling at some points.

[Kirito]

This seems to be stronger in the end than a totem druid, though a totem might have an easier time leveling at some points.

The totem will have a MUCH easier time leveling, CONDruid only surpases it at level 28... that's a long slog

[Lorkas]

With conjuration focuses, I've found you can generally do just fine standing behind your summon. It isn't the fastest way to level for sure, but it's relatively safe and works fine. You'll do fine with just your animal companion and summon both buffed up like crazy.

[WanderingPoet]

Taking a 4 Str/Dex/Con hit will weaken you a lot outside of form and you can't cast while in form. Arguably if you're not planning to attack something with the form I could see skipping it. It is nice to have an instant cast ability that makes you incredibly tough, but it is at the cost of 2 AC/60HP/2 damage/2AB/encumbrance

It also weakens a lot of Shifter forms, if one was to go down the Shifter PRC path.

[Sab1]

Totem druid to me seems a better option if you want to be a in your face melee type when shifted or for rp.

[TimeAdept]

Totem's a trap path now with available Aura of Vit and Transmutation buffs and I wouldn't take it on any character. Totem Form is not worth it when Monolith and Dragons are available and better in every single way. Trading 12 stat points for an 'oh shit' button that won't actually get you out of the shit is not viable.

[If Valor Were Inches]

I wouldn't call -any- path in Arelith a "trap path".

Totem Druid is going to be all around stronger early and mid character, especially if we are talking non-caster druids. Regular druids will shine late from what I am understanding.

Given not many make it to the high epics, the trade off honestly isn't that much worse. There's a reason why my Arch Enemy suggested druids get polymorph self for mid-level help.

I think any changes should just be made to make non-totem druids more succesful in the caster orientation department, perhaps by making Totems not as good with offensive spells since they're more animal-oriented anyway, such as a penalty to spell DC's, or a bonus for their non-totem friends.

[TimeAdept]

Please do not buff non totem Druids, they do not need it, save for perhaps very minor expansions of their spell book that might, in their current state threaten to tip the balance already.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Please do not buff non totem Druids, they do not need it, save for perhaps very minor expansions of their spell book that might, in their current state threaten to tip the balance already.

Not to get all philosophical (and I daresay the server admins know this better than me) but surely we introduce features for fun and RP potential, not in a forlorn effort to chase the dragon of equilibrium.

It's not 'do vanilla druids need it?', it's 'does this make vanilla druids more fun to (role)play as?'.

The notion of fun being linked to optimal maximum potential power (in PvE or PvP) is true only for a very small subset of players - who are important but no more than everyone else.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Also, I remember a time where you could spend RL weeks playing several hours a day without meeting a non-totem druid, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

[TimeAdept]

Features are introduced for fun and RP potential, but you are walking a short path to game-breaking if you don't consider "the dragon of equilibrium" when you make changes.

[caldura firebourne]

I don't know about everyone else, but I think some bonuses to non totem druids that would make them more fun to play and thematic would be more along the lines of
Ranger style animal empathy
Ability to plant things outside of farm plots
Use of -balance more than 1/day

Not necessarily make them stronger, but give them flavor that says
"I'm not pacted to a spirit animal, this is what I do instead"

[Sab1]

That could be said for any race or class that bonuses would make them more fun to play. Please no more unneeded class tampering.

[Tourmaline]

Maybe endless low level spells for caster druids like wizards and sorcerers get? Greater evocation gives infinite flame lash for example.

[Sockss]

Totem druids have a much easier time levelling due to relatively high AC.

Totem druids can additionally get more skill points (Rat is pretty optimal)

Druids don't have a reason to exist outside of a form, so the totem druid negatives are solely that you can't pick EDR (But, that's not really a problem unless you're running that variant in which case you just don't pick it)

Totem druids can also shift into totem form while CC'd (Including timestop) to benefit from some big hp to soak damage against nukes.

If you're playing a totem druid to be effective beyond tanking in PvE, or soaking a nuke in PvP, then you'll be disappointed. It's rather sparse for a path.

tldr: Pick totem if you're not getting EDR, the downsides are near non-existent with druids as they are right now.

[TimeAdept]

Maybe endless low level spells for caster druids like wizards and sorcerers get? Greater evocation gives infinite flame lash for example.

I think this is a great idea btw, and think both clerics and druids should also have access to a list of spells based on Greater Spell Foci.

[miesny_jez]

Totem druids can also shift into totem form while CC'd (Including timestop) to benefit from some big hp to soak damage against nukes

This sounds like an exploit to me.. thanks for raising it.. will fix

[caldura firebourne]

That could be said for any race or class that bonuses would make them more fun to play. Please no more unneeded class tampering.

What's wrong with adjusting an underplayed path?
I mean, I understand changes may not always be a good thing but it's really not constructive to simply disagree with the possibility and downplay it as needless. To be fair the entire game is rather needless, we all play it for fun, so what's wrong with a little needless tampering to make parts if the game more fun?

[TimeAdept]

Totem druids can also shift into totem form while CC'd (Including timestop) to benefit from some big hp to soak damage against nukes

This sounds like an exploit to me.. thanks for raising it.. will fix

Like I said. Totem Druids: Trap path.

[BegoneThoth]

How much AC do totem druids end up with at 30? What AB? What damage?

Last I checked, and I could be wrong, but the answers to all these things are low or at the bottom of what one might consider passable. Monk helps but then you lose the monolith form.

[Nitro]

Well, completely unbuffed you're looking at 38 STR/DEX/CON, and 22 AC bonus (which I believe caps at 20, so that's a bit superfluous).
That's still a fairly respectable 44 AC without buffs or expertise, and it only requires a 26 level investment to get the best totem form so you can still grab a 4 level dip in whichever class your flavour is.
Damage is garbage though, since they've got unarmed attacks.
Dropping down to 24 only loses you 1 AC as well, so if totem form is all you're building for, that's probably where I'd stop for extra multiclassing potential. But yeah, elemental monolith forms are stronger if you want to make a shapeshifting melee druid.

[One Two Three Five]

Arguments like this is why I think we should have cosmetic totems. I'd love to summon snakes without taking a gigantic stat hit.

[BegoneThoth]

I'd like it if everyone just got the totem forms with no stat hit. I don't see why soft bonus things like +2 str, +2 dex, +2 spot, +2 hide, +2 move silent, are worth a whopping 12 stat points, made worse now that you almost can't be a totem and get things like power attack/cleave.

[Skeletor]

Druids don't have a reason to exist outside of a form.

Well i don't know... I think casting empowered firestorm, a gazillion spiek growths and maybe a few bombardments topped off with Elemental swarm, harms , firewalls and sunbursts might be a good enough reason. Maybe.