How does forcing doors work?

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DarkDreamer
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by DarkDreamer » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:42 am

TimeAdept wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote:Quarter and house doors can be bashed or opened by lock-picking. The owner can pay money to increase the strength of the door or the lock, but it also increases their rent/taxes. All items inside a quarter still fall under rule against excessive theft. A group of thieves working together may only take one item/stack, regardless number of thieves involved.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Quarter

Unless a DM chimes in on this, its fact.
the wiki is not fact and has been wrong several times since i started playing here including having 7 year long exploits touted as "Fact" that were then resolved by devs and DMs when finally pointed out.
Note that I did say "Unless a DM Chimes in" Opening to say that it could be wrong, but is good to follow till then.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by DM Titania » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:35 am

Might comb over the rule page on the Wiki or make one if there isn't already to state common clarifications.

Clarified: One theft per party per quarter.
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DarkDreamer
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by DarkDreamer » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:18 am

DM Titania wrote:Might comb over the rule page on the Wiki or make one if there isn't already to state common clarifications.

Clarified: One theft per party per quarter.
It would be good for the DMs to make a clear cut and dry rule page with a note stating its made by DMs and put on the front page.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:08 am

Also hard to control who is in the "party" and who just shows up because they see/hear there's a break in in some faction or mansion.
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by PinataPlethora » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:27 am

BegoneThoth wrote:Also hard to control who is in the "party" and who just shows up because they see/hear there's a break in in some faction or mansion.
That's all going to be judged on a case by case basis.

And where are you that people are randomly showing up to your mansion breaking in party? It takes half an hour just to find a small adventuring party in the busiest places. You're really grasping for straws with this whole party looting thing.

Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to preemptively excuse yourself on the forums for something shady you plan to do in game.

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Lorkas
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:34 am

BegoneThoth wrote:Also hard to control who is in the "party" and who just shows up because they see/hear there's a break in in some faction or mansion.
I've seen it mentioned earlier in the thread that one person breaking into a quarter can just let everyone else into the quarter until the next reset, but I'm struggling to see how that scenario plays out.

There are two types of quarter doors: ones that are linked to a transition into the quarter, with the quarter interior on another map, and ones that simply open and allow you to walk through without a transition.

The transition type automatically closes after a little while, so even if the thief was careless enough to leave the door open, it couldn't possibly be open long (and it is re-locked automatically when it closes).

The non-transition type stays open, but only as long as someone is on the same map. If everyone leaves the map, then those doors close (and re-lock) automatically as the person loads the area. There are a handful of quarters in the module where I can imagine this to be a serious problem--it has to be an area with a quarter linked to it that has constant regular traffic throughout a reset. Not even the Hub always has a character in it.

Does the door actually break off when you use strength to force the door, or something? Otherwise, I don't understand how this is a problem.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:03 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Cerk Evermoore wrote:Just drop the DC to 117. You won't be getting in unless you are a trickery cleric / have a bard.
-Local man with burglarly focused build and a bard friend, 2018

Haha jokes on me, 30 point dedicated bards don't even exist! Local man with lock picking focus. Should have stopped @50 points lock picking.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Iceborn » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:32 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote:Quarter and house doors can be bashed or opened by lock-picking. The owner can pay money to increase the strength of the door or the lock, but it also increases their rent/taxes. All items inside a quarter still fall under rule against excessive theft. A group of thieves working together may only take one item/stack, regardless number of thieves involved.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Quarter

Unless a DM chimes in on this, its fact.
the wiki is not fact and has been wrong several times since i started playing here including having 7 year long exploits touted as "Fact" that were then resolved by devs and DMs when finally pointed out.
I try to keep it updated as I can.
That specific line is something that I remember writing from the last time the quarter discussion came up, and was confirmed by the DMs at the time.

If you have seen it anywhere where it's incorrect, do send a PM and I'll have it fixed.
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Lorkas
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:51 pm

What exploit(s) are you talking about, TimeAdept?

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Ork
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Ork » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:53 pm

I believe he's alluding to the Druid stat penalty/feat gain exploit where a character takes a feat before the stat penalty of totem affects their character sheet.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:59 pm

I absolutely love the idea that chests in quarters are impenetrable to anyone besides the quarter owner/faction, but lowering the barrier to breaking into the house. For a couple reasons,

1) you can steal fixtures
2) you can steal information
3) you create a feeling of unsafeness

It would certainly rethink tropes of classic burglary. And like David Cook's segment, maybe more thieves would leave lava lamps and we'd get some cool rp.
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:04 pm

Ork wrote:I believe he's alluding to the Druid stat penalty/feat gain exploit where a character takes a feat before the stat penalty of totem affects their character sheet.
I think that's a case of a policy change, not a case of the Wiki being wrong. The idea of taking physical-prereq feats before taking the totem pact was given as advice openly on the old forums for years without being challenged by DMs or devs. I could be wrong, but I simply thought that the old administrators were okay with this and the new administrators were not, rather than that the old administrators just didn't know people were doing this and advising others to do so.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by PinataPlethora » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Lorkas wrote:Does the door actually break off when you use strength to force the door, or something?
It just opens. When you close it, it goes back to normal.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Tourmaline » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:46 pm

Lorkas wrote:
Ork wrote:I believe he's alluding to the Druid stat penalty/feat gain exploit where a character takes a feat before the stat penalty of totem affects their character sheet.
I think that's a case of a policy change, not a case of the Wiki being wrong. The idea of taking physical-prereq feats before taking the totem pact was given as advice openly on the old forums for years without being challenged by DMs or devs. I could be wrong, but I simply thought that the old administrators were okay with this and the new administrators were not, rather than that the old administrators just didn't know people were doing this and advising others to do so.
Mithreas specifically said it was okay to do this when totems were introduced and that was quoted in the wiki. It was never an exploit, even if a new dev or DM thinks so. They may not have even been playing back then. And keep in mind this was years before the epic monolith shapes, when dragonshaping at 30 was the go-to and no one in their right mind would take EDR (or be able to and meet the DS wisdom requirement) so it was pretty much a non-issue.

Honestly if something is in the wiki, it really must be considered a de facto rule because that is the first place a player will check. Not digging through old posts in the forums, not asking on Dischord or whatever. Rule changes happen of course but don't retroactively call things exploits if the Wiki says or said it's allowed.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

That's a big negative, the wiki is not a source for those things specifically because of cases like druid totem stuff.

In short don't trust the wiki, ask a dm.
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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Lorkas » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:41 am

Again, it's important to emphasize that the wiki was not wrong. The wiki accurately represented what was server policy for a long time, and then the server policy changed. You might as well disparage the wiki for being inaccurate about Warlocks for 5 years since warlocks now are different from how they were for the first 5 years after they were introduced.

It's more accurate to say "what you read on the wiki is subject to policy changes" than it is to say "the wiki was wrong". The wiki was right, then the policy changed and the wiki was wrong briefly before being changed to reflect the new policy.

I don't know why some people are determined to discredit the wiki. It's a pretty good resource with, yes, some inaccuracies sometimes, but if you demand a total lack of inaccuracies from any source before using it then you're not going to find any reference sources you can use for any subject.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:50 am

BegoneThoth wrote:In short don't trust the wiki, ask a dm.
Iceborn (AKA The Wiki Admin) wrote:If you have seen it anywhere where it's incorrect, do send a PM and I'll have it fixed.
I short don't just complain, do something about it.

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Tourmaline » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:04 am

The wiki is also the most comprehensive reference Arelith has for rules and mechanics and almost all new players are going to start there. You can tell long-time players to "ask a DM" if they're unsure if a rule in the wiki is actually the case, but very few new or casual players are going to do that. (And, we are going to have a lot of new and casual players whenever EE comes out.)

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Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by nobs3 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:27 am

I dislike the idea that - if you want characters to be able to break into quarters - only very very special builds can do it. Epic rogues with all (normal +2) tools/gear and max skill should be able to do it too. If this should be mechanical supported rp.

So maybe there could be several incalculable risks? (like pp)
- like being detected and attacked by guards
- leaving some hints/marks pointing at your character
- starting an alarm
- ...

That way it is nothing like 100% or 0% success.

Also two locks and maybe traps with different max. caps on door and chest (door lower than chest) would double the risks but also the chosts for security.

(Lower DC caps in addition to reset to a low base security when a quarter changes ownership.)

((Still I think a possibility to store up to 3 items/stacks save at 3 main banks on Arelith (2 surface, 1 UD) for high costs would remove much tension.))

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