How does forcing doors work?

You have questions? We may have answers.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 1631
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:00 am

One Two Three Five wrote:I assumed no one would play a 26 cleric with a dex base, honestly.
... Hold my beer.
Cortex wrote:dont listen to baron for good builds hes bad mkay

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Iceborn » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:00 am

I'm pretty sure the bard song, the trickery bonus, and gear count toward the soft cap, but you didn't hit it there.

Still.
Nitro wrote:
If Valor Were Inches wrote:I kind of disagree with this safety, the problem with robbery is things are too safe.

Losing something is a momentous event, IMO, that is a nice story point. I know some are more attached to items than others though.

Plus the most valuable items you can always just keep on your person.
Yes, let me keep a thousand pound stack of adamantite bars on my wizard with 10 STR. Or 99 rubies in convenient pickpocket range for any rogue who happens by me.
While I think it is unhealthy that we get attached to our items, the fact is that most players put a lot of work, time and effort in collecting materials and crafts. There's an attachment that goes to the OOC level, and while you can make great RP out of thievery, most thieves will rather to just vaporize without giving nothing tangible, and that can lead to a bad blood between players, or just against the server itself that allows one to work immensely and then be so easily robbed of their efforts without giving them anything back. I'm repeating myself.

I suggest the quarters themselves be lock-pickeable, because that's where the RP is at. Not in the chest that contains the phat stacks of loot. That is another beast.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Cerk Evermoore
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:30 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:39 am

Baron Saturday wrote: +6 ring x2.
A ring exists that gives +6 open lock?

User avatar
If Valor Were Inches
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:57 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Iceborn wrote:I'm pretty sure the bard song, the trickery bonus, and gear count toward the soft cap, but you didn't hit it there.

Still.
While I think it is unhealthy that we get attached to our items, the fact is that most players put a lot of work, time and effort in collecting materials and crafts. There's an attachment that goes to the OOC level, and while you can make great RP out of thievery, most thieves will rather to just vaporize without giving nothing tangible, and that can lead to a bad blood between players, or just against the server itself that allows one to work immensely and then be so easily robbed of their efforts without giving them anything back. I'm repeating myself.

I suggest the quarters themselves be lock-pickeable, because that's where the RP is at. Not in the chest that contains the phat stacks of loot. That is another beast.
Maybe such thieves should receive greater scrutiny then on what they do with it, then. It doesn't make any sense to steal something you plan to vaporize. It just seems at that point you are being malicious, or not really thinking narratively.

The system won't work unless players are willing to risk losing more precious things (And honestly as a thief player, we're a 100% more interested in your storage than your home decor), and thieves in turn are more responsible and given faith. Putting a lock on one that's not as strong but then a strong one on the entire robbery target is rather pointless for several properties, unless you really want that fluffy pillow of Jane's.

Plus it is the item the character holds the most precious that can potentailly be the best target. Not the adamantine ingot that's not too difficult to replace, though a juicy choice but that precious little RP item that has no mechanical value but is worth a lot to you in terms of its meaning, or that unique item you've earned from that quest that is rotting away in the chest as memoribilia.

This is not balanced by making it harder to rob, it's balanced by making thieves more accountable to the rules OOCly, and having IC actions that give real consequences to those who do rob narratively. We could easily add a rule that suggests player can only take one item from a stack, exempt pickpocketing, or perhaps pickpocketing changed to only take one of a stack if people are dreading losing a thousand pounds of adamantine ingots. We can easily report abuse and have our items returned. I think those would be better avenues then adding a separate lock to chests that's like the system, because almost everyone would put it up to the maximum, and does not solve the system's issue. Perhaps properties could have inequal security, some properties safer than others, perhaps dedicated rogues and assassins get a better bonus at breaking in, but regardless of the resolution, no one should be able to opt out.

Making it easier to break in however, does give assassins a bit of an easier time to track down hiding targets.

But having NPC targets could also be an addition to help satisfy the robbery character for low levels, who will likely not be able to break into most homes anyway. But a change on the player homes will help too, I think it is definitely faulty if a specific build and an available bard are both required to breach a max DC.

Shadowy Reality
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:56 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:30 pm

If Valor Were Inches wrote:But having NPC targets could also be an addition to help satisfy the robbery character for low levels, who will likely not be able to break into most homes anyway. But a change on the player homes will help too, I think it is definitely faulty if a specific build and an available bard are both required to breach a max DC.
There are actually quite a few places for thief PCs to rob (mostly in Cordor). Some of these are actually quite cool.

User avatar
Xanos950
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:00 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Xanos950 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:58 pm

ok im a epic wizard and have no need for common mundane storage facilities let alone can't be bothered to deal with thieves cuz thats my rp LUL.

so please gimme my personal demi-plane that can't be picked or even visited let alone detected by anyone but me. k ty.

Fact is, it's annoying having to deal with thieves and 99% of the time it's just obnoxious with no rp involvement anyway (Good for you if you're not that kinda thief.) It's a topic that is borderline accepted griefing akin to disarm rules.

So actually, please make the doors even more difficult... Or no even better, let me install an adamantine door, you can steal that one if you want. Take my door but leave my stuff alone, deal?

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Iceborn » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:50 pm

If Valor Were Inches wrote:[Stuff]
Look, I'm an idealist, but this is not something that I can see generating more good than ill.
Yes, I want to believe that with less restrictions and greater freedom, players will choose to not cheese and do the honorable thing, but we have many players, and many perceptions of the game. On what is 'correct', which may as well be "if the server allows it, then I'm in my right".

If you want to steal something narratively, you can cooperate OOCly with the player.
Approaching another player and arranging something to happen for a story to move forward, that the mechanics may not allow for X reason, has surprisingly good results most of the times.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:09 pm

Irongron wrote: I'm also not a fan of the DC127 locks, and feel realistically the maximum should be far lower. The problem is of course - player behaviour. Some thieves wil do so responsibly while others most certainly won't. The further issue here is even when thieves are keeping it 'light' they'll still come in for a lot of OOC grief/harassment for even going down this route (pickpockets have the same problem, as do highwaymen). Being a criminal is really tough on Arelith, and can take nerves of steel.
Some concerns I have about door locks being easier is having someone break into your place, take one item, and leaving the door wide open so you lose everything inside within an hour. It's something I've seen when doors were just left or got stuck open normally.

That or the mob-robbings that I've seen, where 10 or so people plus one locksmith gather up, pick the door, then flood the place each taking one thing in a mad grab.

There's also precious little you can do to stop it. I dont really think there's a whole lot of roleplay happening when someone just opens every quarter in Cordor because the owners arn't on, takes an item from each one, and just does it every day. If there's a US thief and you're Euro time, and you keep logging on to find your place robbed every day, what do you do? Find someone with spot and 12 hours to kill to sit outside your door hoping they try to rob you with a dude there?
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

PinataPlethora
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:30 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:That or the mob-robbings that I've seen, where 10 or so people plus one locksmith gather up, pick the door, then flood the place each taking one thing in a mad grab.
That's considered to be a single "event", and so only one item may be removed by the entire group.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:33 pm

You have a source? It's not in the IG journal or when you 'steal' an item.

I'm not doubting you just want to know what's up.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

DarkDreamer
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1034
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by DarkDreamer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Quarter and house doors can be bashed or opened by lock-picking. The owner can pay money to increase the strength of the door or the lock, but it also increases their rent/taxes. All items inside a quarter still fall under rule against excessive theft. A group of thieves working together may only take one item/stack, regardless number of thieves involved.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Quarter

Unless a DM chimes in on this, its fact.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Ork » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:17 pm

I love the entitled mentality here, like how dare they take my stuff - griefer.

If you're stolen from, you also have a responsibility of role-playing that. Leave no bad outcome unnoticed, yeah? If a thief steals from you, that might affect your character mentally in the form of paranoia, or hyper-cautiousness.

Hell, we got it easy on this PW. A lot have items drop on death.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:34 pm

Frankly if houses become unsecure I'd feel personally less inclined to try and get one, as the 'safe' storage is to me the principal value of the housing system, though it would make rolling a thief more attractive of a prospect!
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

User avatar
Lorkas
Posts: 3908
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Lorkas » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:37 pm

As long as you're doing it to tell a good and interesting story, fine.

If not, you're part of the problem.

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1048
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:00 pm

I really don't think locks should be easier without any sort of mechanical enforcement on the sorts of problems we used to have: conga-line thief groups, thieves hitting the same people every 24 hours, the fun bit about how once your stuff is gone, it's just gone with no interaction between the two parties.

Of course, the solution from a "I have a quarter" standpoint is to dump all your chest-held stuff into a shop and use your chest for middling, heavy materials, which brings us right back to the 'no point in breaking into houses' "problem." Arms race to the most optimal Didn't Lose A Bunch of My Limited Life Force Getting Adamantine That's Disappeared Into The Void solution.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

Tourmaline
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:51 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:19 pm

A recurring problem in persistent worlds is- if your character can do something once they can do it a thousand more times. It's why epic dungeons are a pushover once you've learned the trick and it's why things like PVP and stealing have to be tightly regulated. I don't think you can just lower the DCs and expect the best.. If stuff can get repeatedly stolen with zero RP involved there's no point to even having storage, except to offload those 99 coal stacks.

I do like the idea of quarter locks being pickable/bashable and storage chests being impenetrable, that seems like the best way to encourage spy or thug RP while not making chests pointless. Or maybe a thief could "study" a lock- like say there's a menu option for dedicated rogues to "study" the lock and the longer they do it the higher their skill roll on that particular lock until it is changed next, with of course the caveat that the longer they are standing there the more chance of being caught.

That's really the heart of the problem with stealing, though. Once is great for story purposes and you can get a lot of great RP out of that, sure. A thief or thieves knowing they can help themselves to your chest once a day, making sure to do so when you're not online, never leaving so much as a note.. I'm just not interested in playing that particular game.
Last edited by Tourmaline on Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1051
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Approximate fraction of players with burglar builds that have claimed they're going to put all sorts of effort into doing "something really neat, cool, and interactive", historically: 100%

Approximate number of times I've seen it be anything other than a wordless plunder when the target has been offline, with no trace left behind or any sort of further interaction: 0.

This may be one of those cases where there's only so much that can really be done to make burglary interactive, without it being an inordinately large expenditure of effort to help 1-2 characters out.

It might also be the case that this sort of character behavior draws a certain kind of player that's just not very interested in making burglary interesting to begin with.

Either way, I can't see any compelling reason to remove the potential of quarters to be basically inviolable. It would be an addition that would probably add next to no RP benefit, would require a lot more refereeing of individual player behavior, and would be a gigantic pain in the Snuggybear for a lot of players for whom the crafting, acquisition, and sale of stuff is a big draw of the server. If there were a compelling benefit to be had, it might be worth dealing with these drawbacks, but there really isn't.
If you're playing a character or acting as a player that mistakes principle for intransigence, you never actually wanted a Roleplay server to begin with. You wanted a social server with light roleplay elements.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Approximate number of times I've seen it be anything other than a wordless plunder when the target has been offline, with no trace left behind or any sort of further interaction: 0.
There was a thread on Q&A just recently about someone jacking an entire quarter worth of stuff. And I saw it happen when I ran the guild hall in Cordor and didn't set locks high enough, not to mention just coming home and seeing half a dozen fixtures bashed. Had to move most stuff inside after it kept happening and it's just less work the going to the DM team again and again and again.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Ork » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:40 pm

I like the idea of burglary. Maybe the solution is the implementation of more NPC locations with rewards dependant upon a plethora of skills that Irongron has hinted at & remove burglary from PC quarters entirely by making chests only open to owners/faction members.

User avatar
Thanatosis
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Thanatosis » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:35 pm

I agree with Scurvy; also I like Ork's idea of more NPC houses to steal cool stuff from.
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

Cerk Evermoore
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:30 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:36 pm

Just drop the DC to 117. You won't be getting in unless you are a trickery cleric / have a bard.

DM Spyre
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by DM Spyre » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:35 am

BegoneThoth wrote:Frankly if houses become unsecure I'm just not going to use them, and will ensure all my next characters can beat whatever the highest lock is.
This just sounds like a bad mentality to carry and will land you in trouble if you act like that.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:07 am

You are right, apologies and I'll edit it.
"If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team."
Current Character

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1051
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:10 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:Just drop the DC to 117. You won't be getting in unless you are a trickery cleric / have a bard.
-Local man with burglarly focused build and a bard friend, 2018
If you're playing a character or acting as a player that mistakes principle for intransigence, you never actually wanted a Roleplay server to begin with. You wanted a social server with light roleplay elements.

TimeAdept
Posts: 541
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: How does forcing doors work?

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 am

DarkDreamer wrote:Quarter and house doors can be bashed or opened by lock-picking. The owner can pay money to increase the strength of the door or the lock, but it also increases their rent/taxes. All items inside a quarter still fall under rule against excessive theft. A group of thieves working together may only take one item/stack, regardless number of thieves involved.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Quarter

Unless a DM chimes in on this, its fact.
the wiki is not fact and has been wrong several times since i started playing here including having 7 year long exploits touted as "Fact" that were then resolved by devs and DMs when finally pointed out.

Post Reply