Becoming an outcast

[One Two Three Five]

I think we should move away from OOC tagging and other non-rp methods of identification, myself.

[DarkDreamer]

Then please...tell us a way to ICly KNOW these people are outcasts, I know a LOT of outcasts that NEVER reveal they are outcasts so really...are just using the system for the gains.

[One Two Three Five]

Huge gains like not using the boats, having a big'ol secret to hide, and being able to navigate the Underdark better? Like an outcast?

Should Sharrans get a tag too? I bet lots of them go by unnoticed. Outcasts get thrown into the Underdark on the mainland, almost I would assume exclusively, now that you can't buy it. Not everyone's going to be walking around with a LOW IMPULSE CONTROL tattoo on their foreheads because of it.

Edit: That'd be dope tho. Can new outcasts instead of getting a big dumb THIS PERSON'S AN OUTCAST HOW GAUCHE tag get a random brand out of a set of like, however many? Note, new.

[Conversations With Your Car Alarm]

Jesus Christ, what is up with all this freaking out over things? It's silly. There is nothing on this server that is so critical that a person should need to use ALL CAPS over. Save that for real life problems. Mass incarceration, war, poverty, yoga studios moving into your neighborhood.

Maybe the Outcast wants to hide it, maybe they are not as awesome as you are at RP, maybe they do show it and you have not seen it personally. I don't know what to tell you, man.

[One Two Three Five]

It's a snow crash reference my dude I haven't got mad about this game since I was 14
edit: it was POOR not LOW
I also havent read snow crash since i was 14

[Nitro]

Then please...tell us a way to ICly KNOW these people are outcasts, I know a LOT of outcasts that NEVER reveal they are outcasts so really...are just using the system for the gains.

Pretty small gains TBH. You swap citizenship and property availability from surface to underdark, you lose access to Laurick, gain access to hub portal and get Undercommon as well as no drow gank-spawns.
The hub portal is negligent as anyone can just walk down to the devil transporter 2 transitions away and get to a source portal for a measly 10xp, and the slums portal allows easy access to Andunor, and anyone can get undercommon with 12+ INT. The drow spawns can be nasty if you don't know what you're doing, but are negated entirely by an invis potion, and are actually a good source of XP and loot if you're a class that can take them.

So balance wise, there's not really much to abuse. Any surface character can do pretty much everything an outcast can, barring renting stuff in Andunor. The background option might as well be renamed to deep-human or somesuch if we just go by the mechanics.

[Iceborn]

The concept of the outcast is that you are Hitler.
In Arelith, we have many people advocating for the third draconic/infernal/abyssal/drow/gnome/etc reich that should fit by default the classification of what an outcast is supposed to be.

I am not averse to the idea of toning down what an outcast is supposed to be. This is a matter of a stance as a community and how something was intended, or should be intended to use. What makes a character what it is.

The mechanics (the world, NPCs, services, guards, etc) help us paint a view of how the world reacts to outcast characters, which non-outcast characters would tend to use as reference to define their own roleplay and stance toward outcasts.

And that is something that I'd like to see a little further defined, or not defined at all.

[BegoneThoth]

We need to move away from the arelith mentality of "Let me be this thing; without having to roleplay it or suffer its consequences"

You're an Outcast. The wiki explicit states you're widely known for ill things. (Doesn't matter if they're true or not). So deal with those things, otherwise you're not an outcast. You're just another person who cheesed access to the underdark portal.

At the very least, I believe all outcasts should get a tag for what they are (like the radiant heart one).

Precisely. You have to pick being a social degenerate, so expect the consequences and to be singled out. Outcasts literally pick the option that says "can't function in society."

[Cybernet21]

So balance wise, there's not really much to abuse. Any surface character can do pretty much everything an outcast can, barring renting stuff in Andunor. The background option might as well be renamed to deep-human or somesuch if we just go by the mechanics.

So by not knowing who is an Outcast the system can be abused both ways,surface dwellers doing the same thing as Outcasts is also abuse,if we knew who were Outcasts (In a IC way,again no metagame involved) both the Surfacers could react accordingly to Outcasts walking into cities and UD'ers to non outcasts hanging around in UD.

Pus the IC description of being an outcast can be hidden by disguises (just like the Radiant Heart tag does)

[Durvayas]

Can new outcasts instead of getting a big dumb THIS PERSON'S AN OUTCAST HOW GAUCHE tag get a random brand out of a set of like, however many? Note, new.

This is actually not a bad idea at all, and has real world examples.

Human branding or stigmatizing is the process which a mark, usually a symbol or ornamental pattern, is burned into the skin of a living person, with the intention that the resulting scar makes it permanent.

The punishment was adopted by the Anglo-Saxons, and the ancient law of England authorized the penalty. By the Statute of Vagabonds (1547) under King Edward VI, vagabonds and Gypsies were ordered to be branded with a large V on the breast, and brawlers with F for "fraymaker"; slaves who ran away were branded with S on the cheek or forehead.

In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.

In the North-American Puritan settlements of the 17th century, men and women sentenced for adultery were branded with an "A" letter on their chest, and for other crimes, such as "D" for drunkenness and "B" for blasphemy.

In europe, serial offenders of serious crimes were sometimes branded with a 'X' on their cheek, breast, or hand. After their third offense, if caught and convicted again, they would be hanged.

[BegoneThoth]

I'd like that. "This character has been psychically branded as an outcast!"

[One Two Three Five]

I mean this is neither the suggestion nor the feedback forum so I'm just gonna go ahead and make it a suggestion

[Garveus]

Perhaps the problem doesn't lie solely in Outcasts being unrecognizable, maybe it's partially because the other Tags (Radiant Heart, Noble, don't know if there are others) are just blatantly obvious thanks to 'Examine'.
If, instead, all these Tags (Outcast included) shared the same line of equally vague text, something along the lines of 'This personage strikes you as oddly familiar.', would it bring more fairness and more RP possibilities to the table, or merely more confusion?

As for branding: does every character in Arelith have to be imprisoned before becoming an Outcast, or can they be banned from surface cities based on their description? I don't really dislike the idea, but it feels a little bit too limiting to me.

[Tarkus the dog]

i have a question.
why is it important to you to know that a character is an outcast

[One Two Three Five]

Because they're getting away with it.

[Cybernet21]

i have a question.
why is it important to you to know that a character is an outcast

Because it stops abuse of the system,it adds more immersion to being a Outcast and encourages creative RP if a Outcast Character really needs to get into a settlement,and because by the definition of Outcast they should be known

[DarkDreamer]

i have a question.
why is it important to you to know that a character is an outcast

Lets say you join the ballet, you get the leading roll for Swan Lake, but suddenly the night of the show you decide your gonna dress up like a goth and pretend like your not a member, your not disguised or anything, your even still gonna do the lead....but...your totally gonna pretend your not so you dont have to face the fact that your doing ballet....well...the teacher is eventually gonna tell you to go get your damn tutu on and stop pretending to be anything but what you are.

[caldura firebourne]

There are ways to find out if a character is an outcast or not, as it is right now outcasts fill a much needed role in the underdark as possible spies, a means to trade with other settlements, or sell wares to surface people

There's no need to have them branded as outcast so the player population can take that role away from them, just as there's no need to mark every surfacer who goes to Andunor to hang around as a spy from the surface

Can some instances of outcasts be RP'd better? Sure, but as players ourselves it's simply not our place to judge what is the right and wrong way to play a background, literally no other background is being requested to have a mechanical requirement put on it, so until that changes I'm of the opinion that restricted property access is more than enough of a drawback for outcasts

[Iceborn]

i have a question.
why is it important to you to know that a character is an outcast

In our little RPing world where everything is based about relations and Who is Doing What With Who to Whom, there is some relevance to who you choose to call friend or not.

An outcast, right now, is not "some loser that lives in the UD", but outright classified as somebody so terrible that they -cannot possibly- live anywhere else that is not a damp cave.

Instead of posting another bait, you can go to the outcast subsection in the background article in the wiki to read Irongron's statement on the Outcast background.

[Harasha]

An optional brand would be cool, if you wanted to roll that way. But it should be optional. Otherwise I think outcasts should just have a different experience above, having to watch their step if they care to avoid exposure.

I really don't mean to judge any RP, but I think an outcasts's experience should be that of a fugitive or a pariah or Ricky Spanish, most hated man in Cordor. Doing more with NPCs would be a good way to do that without really messing up any existing characters or narrowing backstories. Make it so they have to tread carefully around guards and avoid using the wrong merchant.

[azrael_athing]

First: I think this topic in on the verge of derailing, this has turned from a question into a discussion, and unless we can keep it civil it should be locked. So keep in mind, this is not an argument about who is "Right" and who is "Wrong", but an exchange of ideas on the topic.

edit: Actualy the original topic and the question it was brought has already been answered. So the topic actually has derailed.

Secondly: On the topic about the OOC-tags in the description, "This is a member of the Radiant Heart, etc..." It might not be the way to go around the problem, espesially as the Outcast, unlike the Paladin, would not gladly announce it's precense, it is trying to blend in, with or without a diguise.

edit: Then ofcourse, not all outcasts will try to blend in, or can.

There is however an option for us, as our rather interesting -investigate function could come into play. With people with high search and lore, being able to pick an outcast/paladin from the crowd. Perhaps the OOC-tag could instead be revisited as "This character is renown somewhy" (Mentioned previously I belive) for the people who really can't tell the difference, meaning it could be any reason Noble/Murdurer/Butcher/Patriarch Vetinari. While the one with high enough skill would be able to narrow it down. Food for thoughts.

Thirdly: I belive the addition of Highway patrols, like random encountered Bounty Hunters, to compare with the random encounters of the Drow ambushes in Underdark, would balance some of the issue. As what we want to avoid is having any one character the ability to move truly undisturbed between the two settlements.

Fourthly: Captain Laurik refuses service...
In my opinion, this needs to go, it's a relic of Wharftown being missplayed as a "monster-friendly" town. Right now I feel it is more a prevention of RP possibilities then anything else. Atleast for the Svirfneblin who confused have been refused service.

Captain Laurik is a semi-renown (And possibly a lich considering his age), cutthroat captain with possible background in the Smugglerbuisiness. Does he really care who he takes on for the ride?

Fifthly:

Can new outcasts instead of getting a big dumb THIS PERSON'S AN OUTCAST HOW GAUCHE tag get a random brand out of a set of like, however many? Note, new.

This is actually not a bad idea at all, and has real world examples.

Human branding or stigmatizing is the process which a mark, usually a symbol or ornamental pattern, is burned into the skin of a living person, with the intention that the resulting scar makes it permanent.

The punishment was adopted by the Anglo-Saxons, and the ancient law of England authorized the penalty. By the Statute of Vagabonds (1547) under King Edward VI, vagabonds and Gypsies were ordered to be branded with a large V on the breast, and brawlers with F for "fraymaker"; slaves who ran away were branded with S on the cheek or forehead.

In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.

In the North-American Puritan settlements of the 17th century, men and women sentenced for adultery were branded with an "A" letter on their chest, and for other crimes, such as "D" for drunkenness and "B" for blasphemy.

In europe, serial offenders of serious crimes were sometimes branded with a 'X' on their cheek, breast, or hand. After their third offense, if caught and convicted again, they would be hanged.

I don't think we want to do this, the brands would have to be set of some of the contitutional goverments of the island, i.e left in the hands of players. Who then would be able to "Brand" their prisoners? This is a form of God-emoting. A player making a choise, for someone else.

With Love
S.W.A.L.K
Azrael_Athing

[Durvayas]

Fifthly:

My stuff about branding

I don't think we want to do this, the brands would have to be set of some of the contitutional goverments of the island, i.e left in the hands of players. Who then would be able to "Brand" their prisoners? This is a form of God-emoting. A player making a choise, for someone else.

I don't see any logic in PCs coming from elsewhere with brands of exile and everyone being totally okay with the presence of ___ known murderer/rebel/evil mastermind/etc. Leave it able to be covered over with a disguise perhaps, but outcasts who can't or won't hide what they are should not be accepted in surface society.

Now players have to ask the DMs to request this background to be added to their existing characters and its up to the DMs if they think its valid or not based on the character requesting the background.

We leave branding of real outcasts that earn the title with RP up to the DMs, obviously.

[azrael_athing]

Would branding even make any sense in our setting, I understand for slaves, who have no contacts, or high magic to assist them, this could be a way to sepparate between them. However for most of the characters there is a high-level cleric or druid to take on the job for you, we got magic to regrow limbs. Why not burnt skin?

[flower]

Yet none of these super eber priests or mages are able to remove a silly collar. Why should they remove a mark?

[Cybernet21]

Why do people keep thinking it would be an OOC tag...the topic brought up was a IC tag just like the Radiant Heart...(Or NPC's such as Guards dropping hints)

I think the branding can be cool too,since in the FR world it would make sense to mark someone who has been totally cast out from society

Also Outcasts shouldnt blend in unless they are trying to disguise themselves,yes they can work as spies for the UD but if they are actively trying to hide who they are,again this wouldnt hinder anyone who already RP Outcasts like that on the Surface(more specifically Settlements since Outcasts can own quarters in the wilderness).