Becoming an outcast

[Nitro]

Yet none of these super eber priests or mages are able to remove a silly collar. Why should they remove a mark?

They can though, there's this whole questline about just that.

[Durvayas]

Would branding even make any sense in our setting, I understand for slaves, who have no contacts, or high magic to assist them, this could be a way to sepparate between them. However for most of the characters there is a high-level cleric or druid to take on the job for you, we got magic to regrow limbs. Why not burnt skin?

As far as I can tell, clergy are only able to heal fresh wounds. Once a wound has healed and scarred naturally, there's nothing healing magic can do. This can be chalked up to healing magic fixing damaged tissue. Scar tissue is not damaged, just different, so healing magic doesn't replace it.

[FrozenSolid]

I think this is really a super none issue.

If the outcast system is being abused then report it to a DM, problem solved. Making a tag that OOCly tells you that someone is an outcast is information you do not need via a tag. It can be deduced ICly. The system is no different then it was before other then the way it is applied.

Warlocks don't go around with tags that say "I'm a Warlock" you figure it out by how they act, their magic, or even their physical eyes if they reveal that.

Same for other classes. Blackguards, etc this is all information you can find out that is IC.

The point is that with an outcast status you act in some way like an outcast, like you've done or are doing something that makes you unacceptable to society where no Arelith civilization is comfortable granting you a home, or a right to citizenship. That is all mechanically reinforced.

The only change here is that you can't just give a random NPC in the UD 100k gold to be an outcast.

[BegoneThoth]

How do you determine who is abusing outcast status if you don't know they're an outcast?

What if they're just roomie-ing with someone in Cordor and pretending to live there like it's ok? No way to know.

Unlike other 'report bad RP' situations, such as lousy paladins or bad clerics, you can't tell who an outcast is to report it.

But the NPC's can, so why can't players?

Also, a better solution may be to just add a big book of outcasts or an outcast NPC in major cities that let you check the persons name, by typing it in, and that NPC looks up to see if they are actually an outcast.

[FrozenSolid]

If you are not going to be/act as an outcast, then the DM's won't grant you the token.

The not knowing who an outcast is, is sort of a not a thing now because all new outcasts either choose the path at creation, or are awarded it via the DM's, so if they see like Frank, who was just given an outcast token, living it up in Cordor they can react.

Being an outcast doesn't exile you from Cordor, or the rest of the surface, it just means they do not want you living there. Though maybe there is an exception granted for an outcast living /with/ a PC? Then it's up to the other PCs to enforce what they think is acceptable based on what they know.

I think with current outcasts its just something that can be monitored and dealt with on a case by case basis.

[BegoneThoth]

If you are not going to be/act as an outcast, then the DM's won't grant you the token.

iirc you can still pick it at creation with no dm input

so it's still little more then "hmm do I want to bind in the hub or own a house in cordor?"

and honestly the hub is more useful

[Thanatosis]

found out my girlfriend's actually an outcast this whole time

now? i spend all day on the forums campaigning so i never get tricked again

[One Two Three Five]

The problem appears to be hypothetical undetectable outcasts doing hypothetical things on the surface, which they can never benefit from, as they can't use the boats or buy homes in civilized areas, losing all of the benefits of being an Outcast (underdark human), and, this is important-

The hypothetical undetectable outcasts can do all of this without anyone ever knowing. So there's no way to know about it to report it. And, of course, no way to confirm that this is anything but hyperbolic navel gazing about a non-issue. (It's that one)

But one that has to be fixed through code, gosh darn it, because they're hypothetically getting away with it.

[caldura firebourne]

The difference between the OOC tag on radiant heart people, nobles?
And outcasts is a pretty big one in my mind
Radiant heart pin, seems like something you'd be proud of and want to show off
Noble status, who wouldn't want to make it known that they're higher up in the caste system?
Outcasts, would probably rather hide their faces and avoid doing things that would get them recognised like, buying a home you have to make regular payments on in a city, or spending a few hours on a small boat with a man and his trained bodyguards

If you see someone abusing the outcast benefits report it, it's that simple
And I'm fairly certain if a DM catches an outcast abusing the system, they aren't going to sit idly by and let them continue

It doesn't make sense to start mechanically enforcing people to play their backgrounds into a pigeonhole unless we're also going to start making, I don't know "Dauntless" never run from a fight even if they're going to lose,
Or fisherman catch a daily quota of fish to justify their choice on character creation

[WinkinBlinkin]

If no-one knows you're an Outcast, then you're not one. Unlike warlock, Sharran, etc, it is a status that is based entirely on other people's perceptions of you. That's its definition. So unlike with those secretive statuses, it makes no sense whatsoever unless it is apparent.

[flower]

If no-one knows you're an Outcast, then you're not one. Unlike warlock, Sharran, etc, it is a status that is based entirely on other people's perceptions of you. That's its definition. So unlike with those secretive statuses, it makes no sense whatsoever unless it is apparent.

Cannot be said better. It is a social status. If it is not present in society (IE noone knows you are an outcast), then you cannot have that social status. It should never been a mechanical thing. But they simple needed to tie restriction of portals and properties above and below.

I am really missing a point, why people so much protest, when they have chosen the role of known society outcast on their own with free will, fully aware it means that person is persona non grata in major settlements on island.

If we accepted, that -outcast- can originate from mainland. Then this character should simple loose the status as noone on the island would ever know or recognize him as outcast or ever hear of his -crimes-. Imagine some kind of criminal coming from Europe to America in 18th century. New world new identity.

[Cybernet21]

The difference between the OOC tag on radiant heart people, nobles?
And outcasts is a pretty big one in my mind
Radiant heart pin, seems like something you'd be proud of and want to show off
Noble status, who wouldn't want to make it known that they're higher up in the caste system?
Outcasts, would probably rather hide their faces and avoid doing things that would get them recognised like, buying a home you have to make regular payments on in a city, or spending a few hours on a small boat with a man and his trained bodyguards

If you see someone abusing the outcast benefits report it, it's that simple
And I'm fairly certain if a DM catches an outcast abusing the system, they aren't going to sit idly by and let them continue

It doesn't make sense to start mechanically enforcing people to play their backgrounds into a pigeonhole unless we're also going to start making, I don't know "Dauntless" never run from a fight even if they're going to lose,
Or fisherman catch a daily quota of fish to justify their choice on character creation

So people dont have to RP to hide themselves?It automatically happens,no RP whatsoever?So anyone could make a Outcast right now and simply walk into settlements and practically live there(with the exception of having a actual quarter) and there is no way to know?The system can be abused and there's no way to know if it is being abused by someone and report it since we dont know who is an Outcast.One more thing:It's not a OOC tag

And the Outcast background is totally different from any other background,it actually impacts how you will RP a character a lot,the others? Not so much

[BegoneThoth]

I would 100% support simply removing any outcast mechanical effects, letting anyone use the Hub portal, and then just removing outcast.

But as long as there are IC ways to see if someone is shunned from society then it needs to be IC discoverable beyond "use that portal or ship."

[Cybernet21]

I would 100% support simply removing any outcast mechanical effects, letting anyone use the Hub portal, and then just removing outcast.

But as long as there are IC ways to see if someone is shunned from society then it needs to be IC discoverable beyond "use that portal or ship."

The first part i dont agree with,Outcast encourages RP (even if it can be abused atm)

The second part i agree with,there should be a IC way to know someone is an Outcast besides boat (because why would you ask to see if someone can take a boat if they are suspicious to you,realisticly speaking-and yes i know we are in a world of magic and stuff but you get my meaning)

[BegoneThoth]

Yeah that's why I suggested a government Npc that can look up a name if you ask and confirm the status. So you need to do an iota of work to learn.

[caldura firebourne]

The difference between the OOC tag on radiant heart people, nobles?
And outcasts is a pretty big one in my mind
Radiant heart pin, seems like something you'd be proud of and want to show off
Noble status, who wouldn't want to make it known that they're higher up in the caste system?
Outcasts, would probably rather hide their faces and avoid doing things that would get them recognised like, buying a home you have to make regular payments on in a city, or spending a few hours on a small boat with a man and his trained bodyguards

If you see someone abusing the outcast benefits report it, it's that simple
And I'm fairly certain if a DM catches an outcast abusing the system, they aren't going to sit idly by and let them continue

It doesn't make sense to start mechanically enforcing people to play their backgrounds into a pigeonhole unless we're also going to start making, I don't know "Dauntless" never run from a fight even if they're going to lose,
Or fisherman catch a daily quota of fish to justify their choice on character creation

So people dont have to RP to hide themselves?It automatically happens,no RP whatsoever?So anyone could make a Outcast right now and simply walk into settlements and practically live there(with the exception of having a actual quarter) and there is no way to know?The system can be abused and there's no way to know if it is being abused by someone and report it since we dont know who is an Outcast.One more thing:It's not a OOC tag

And the Outcast background is totally different from any other background,it actually impacts how you will RP a character a lot,the others? Not so much

Quite simply, your advocating that instead everyone should just be aware of who the outcasts are without having to RP to discover it, this is the forgotten realms, hardly the information age where a simple google search will bring up a list of undesirable people in your neighborhood, how do you propose your character know the name and face of the amnish mass murderer who fled to arelith and hides out in a cave?

[Cybernet21]

By hearing rumours,as i already said before it's up to each character if they wish acting upon the rumour they probably heard or read,perhaps they dont remember hearing or reading about that.I'll quote myself of what i said back on this thread:

EDIT:No metagame involved,and yes Outcasts should be recognized easily,even if by a passing rumour your character has heard.The description saying him being a Outcast doesnt mean you have to RP your character remembered that passing rumour they heard or read that one time,but it certainly happened they might just not remember,so you go on and RP with that.

EDIT 2: To enforce that wich i stated above the IC description could simply be "Your character might remember hearing or reading rumours about this person being an Outcast" that way it doesnt force any RP.

Plus i liked BegoneThoth's suggestion above seeing as a lot of people are agaisnt the IC tag:

Yeah that's why I suggested a government Npc that can look up a name if you ask and confirm the status. So you need to do an iota of work to learn.

That way you have to RP to know if someone is an Outcast.

And oh,i'll quote wiki once again(fully this time) so people understand it makes sense our characters might(focusing on the description i said could be added back on this post itself and the thread as well) have heard/read of each Oucast:

"Just going to talk about role-play a bit here, as it was myself that introduced the concept of outcasts in Arelith.

The exact reasons for it are something for the individual players to decide upon, as part of their own character's backstory, but essentially this is what it means.

This individual has a degree of notoriety among the populace, whether through actions of their own, family connections, disfigurement, or being falsely accused, their identity is wildly known and rumours about them persists to this day.

These are people nobody would want as a neighbour, and would provoke an angry reaction from local citizens should they be welcomed in any civilsed settlement. Redemption is impossible, not because their crimes are so great, but because their notoreity is so widespread, and the rumours so unpleasant. Any individual player character may choose to disbelieve or forgive an outcast, but they simply lack the capacity to convince an entire nation to share their views."

"... it is up to the players themselves to RP outcasts appropriately. Remember, this doesn't mean you can't like and/or befriend them, but that in doing so you would be breaching the conventions of society in a serious fashion. Picture some of the worst people in human history, and imagine yourself walking down the street with them in your home town". -Irongron

But NPC's that have an archive of Outcasts is also a good suggestion (but then it would be easy to know their names,i would prefer people only knowing my character is an Outcast instead of knowing the name as well if i was playing one)

[BegoneThoth]

Make a records check require some money, say a 50,000 gold donation to check. So its not just trivial to spam names and make a list. Ergo you need to motivate people to actually pay to do the research by being a terrible person as an outcast.

[Ork]

I don't understand - what is the absolute purpose of this thread? What outcasts gain is literally null. Access to the Hub Portal saves you ~5 minutes of walking. If you're worried the person you're talking to is an outcast, that may or may not be represented in their RP. DMs can identify these individuals if they are an issue. Otherwise, just roleplay like always.

I'm worried that more mechanics to identify individuals is always a bad thing. The Light in Benwick. Making people bless an altar to prove their faith. All these things are shallow but players have done it before for ..what exactly?

Just play the game.

[One Two Three Five]

They're getting away with it, hypothetically, something something, roleplay, appears to be what's happening. The question was answered days ago, I slipped a suggestion (that I personally disagree with) into the suggestion box, and the feedback forum is empty on this note. The thread's just arguing personal opinions on how much control people should have over other characters at this point.

It's not our job as players to police other people's characters. The dms can see more than we can, and are almost certainly better at making these sorts of judgement calls. Outcasts have worked fine for how many years now? It's just something to be mad about now that the spellsword thread's died down and at least one of the contributors has gotten run off the forum.

[Cybernet21]

Well i'm just giving my feedback on it.i'm not mad nor trying to police how people RP,plus just because it's not on the Feedback forum we'll just not count none of the insights on the topic then?

Yes the topic was brought up in a Question (wich is totally related) not on the Feedback forum but the points for both sides can be counted as Feedback on thse system,just because it has been fine for years doesnt mean we can give some feedback to change it perhaps.

I'll just keep playing the game no matter,for me this has been just a interesting debate on the Outcast topic.Read one of my first posts on the discussion,i like putting trust on everyone and their RP here but it's good to have some walls put up in case someone abuses the system ever(or just more immersion to the Outcast role added),aside from the DM's since they have a lot on their plates as is.

Anyways this was a interesting discussion but it seems not everyone is liking it(and it's on the wrong sub forum) so i'll stop,thanks for everyone who discussed the topic with me in the tone of a interesting debate

[azrael_athing]

I don't understand - what is the absolute purpose of this thread? What outcasts gain is literally null. Access to the Hub Portal saves you ~5 minutes of walking. If you're worried the person you're talking to is an outcast, that may or may not be represented in their RP. DMs can identify these individuals if they are an issue. Otherwise, just roleplay like always.

I'm worried that more mechanics to identify individuals is always a bad thing. The Light in Benwick. Making people bless an altar to prove their faith. All these things are shallow but players have done it before for ..what exactly?

Just play the game.

It saves you even less now, with the new dock district.

Perhaps one could more nuiance the difference between Underdark and Surface, Cause right now non-outcasts/underdarkers, CAN own property in Andunor. That is, change so that only Uders/Outcasts can hold property in Andunor and the "naughty" areas. And only surfacers/incatchers (see what I did there?), can hold property on Surface and the "nice" areas?

I think this is a possibility now when DM's are monitoring the issue.

[Mouthy Expert]

A theoretical outcast brand would probably behave exactly the same as a slave collar, right down to being able to disguise it with enough bluff/perform.

[Yma23]

This is sort of a tricky question. On the one hand - yeah an outcast should be an outcast because he's DONE something, and it's odd that the NPCs can tell when someone is an outcast, but the pcs can't. It seems wierd to have this background, which revolves around being a Horrible Person, yet being able to hide ones Horribleness so easily.

On the other hand, there's not currently much 'perk' for being an Outcast. Granted there's some! And it's still worth while to take - don't mistake me. But there's perhaps not enough to plonk down some sort of marker as is, and create the downsides of being easily identified as such, and dispised on the surface.

So maybe we should add another bonus to being an outcast, as well as marking them as one, so as to balence things out a bit? Would that help?

I've put down a suggestion here, which I hope the Devs will consider. I think it could be quite neat and might make a good middle ground?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16563

[FrozenSolid]

I don't like the idea of adding bonuses to the outcast status. Then people will just become an outcast because they get +1 strength to max optimize a build. Then the outcast status becomes a Build option, not an RP option.

I guess you could say now people choose it regardless of RP, but I'd not want to give another reason for it.

Regardless of all of that, i'd still be in the court of no OOC indicators of an outcast.

I think maybe something else to consider is that the idea that "Outcasts are getting away with it" living on the surface etc. Who cares if you think the person IS or IS NOT an outcast. If you think that person isn't someone you want living in your settlement then push them out. If you think that they are an outcast because they constantly go around the Underdark and have strong ties there, then push them out if you want to. Just RP it.

I think the actual outcast status of a player doesn't entirely matter, it's up to the RP actions of that player, and the players interacting with that player to determine if they think they are, or are not an outcast.