Question about learning languages

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Morgard
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Question about learning languages

Post by Morgard » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:32 pm

Is there anywhere that I can reference how long it takes to learn a new language? I've already looked at the Wiki page, and I've read about having a higher Int will let you learn more languages, and will let you learn them faster. The Wiki page doesn't reference how long it might normally take, and how much faster a toon with a higher Int might be able to learn a language. I think a toon with a higher Int should be able to learn them faster, that makes perfect sense and IMO it's a great idea. I also read that if you take the Gift of Tongues, then your intelligence modifier counts as +4 higher, allowing you to learn more languages, and faster. This leads back to a higher Int meaning you learn them faster (and can learn more of them). My question is....how much faster? I'm sure that there is a few variables involved here; how often you practice, how long you practice, etc.... But is there a general guideline listed anywhere that I can reference?

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Miaou
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Miaou » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:50 pm

It is intentionally not explained mechanically to stop people from abusing the system.

But, here's some pointers.
  • Lore assists in translating languages.
  • Intelligence increases lore, and allows more languages to be learned.
  • Gift of Tongues makes it faster to learn languages, as well as allowing 4 additional languages to be learned by a character.
Hearing a language, of course, is how you learn. I've seen people learn languages in a wide range of time periods, from a week to a year. It depends on how often you sit down with a speaker of the language and do it. Do know simply spamming text does not help learn a language.

Hope that helps!

Harasha
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Harasha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:36 am

Something I always wondered.. How much faster does Gift of Tongues make the learning process? Is it worth it for someone who just wants to learn one or two languages very quickly (eg someone who wants to learn undercommon to spy below, doesn't care about the rest) or does it still take so long it's not worth the gift slot?

PinataPlethora
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:58 am

Language learning speed is based on your Intelligence modifier, and the Gift of Tongues adds +4 to your modifier for the purpose of learning languages. What effect that has will depend on your Intelligence score.

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Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:56 am

All the basics points above are correct. To clarify some of the points above (as the mechanics generally follow common sense, blessedly!), a higher base intelligence will help you learn faster. A person with the Gift of Tongues learns as though they had 8 higher base Intelligence! After choosing two major gifts, Tongues would definitely be in the running for me as far as options go. That's a major boost to the average speed of learning.

Something which bears repeating from Miaou's post: text spam will not help you learn! Someone counting from one to a hundred, or speaking one word at a time instead of in complete sentences, etc. will not help you learn any faster than normal conversation will. It will just clog up the chat and look silly. There's no secret way to optimize the process; there are certain limitations (subject to influence by your character's base Intelligence/Gift of Tongues) on how fast you can learn, and no "trick" to get by those limits. Smarter characters will learn faster, and that's about it.

As with learning an actual language, lessons from fluent speakers are good, and immersion with fluent speakers is best.

Done.


Woper_The_Black
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Woper_The_Black » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:06 am

Can you learn by listening to conversations from stealth un-noticed ? And is there a few different stages between beginner and fluent, like can we see some progress in the languages area in the help menu ?

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I_Am_King_Midas
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by I_Am_King_Midas » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:30 am

Does lore help you learn the language faster or just be able to guess what others are saying easier
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PinataPlethora
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:39 am

Lore doesn't help you learn languages faster. It just lets you understand.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:10 am

My understanding is that you learn BY understanding, ergo high lore helps you learn faster.
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PinataPlethora
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:19 am

I've never seen that explicitly stated, but it's possible.


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BegoneThoth
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:05 am

I simply can't fathom a language learning system that advanced progress when the user fails to comprehend.
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Lorkas
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Lorkas » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:58 am

BegoneThoth wrote:I simply can't fathom a language learning system that advanced progress when the user fails to comprehend.
Why not? Many areas of human learning IRL progress by failing to do or understand something and then reflecting on the failure and attempting it again in the future.

Not to mention, it would make it impossible to ever start learning a language (both IG and IRL) if you had to start by already understanding something.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:00 pm

Yeah but you get no feedback on failure, the system works as either 100% success or 100% failure. No one can help you learn when you fail unless they know ahead of time what you wanted to say, as you don't say things incorrectly you just say nothing. Even when you're nearly fluent you can and will be sometimes unable to say things like "yes" or "no."

Given that, I don't see why it would count "unintelligible gibberish' as progress.
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Nitro
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Nitro » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:23 pm

Speaking a language doesn't give any progress towards learning a language, just hearing it. (To counteract the cheese of sitting in a corner saying "hi" 250 times a minute with a macro)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm

Interesting.
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Elena
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Elena » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:40 pm

I had a base INT of 14 and it took me something between 2,5 and 3 RL years to learn Draconic. Over the course of time, I had like 4 different tutors for language lessons, but every time, after weeks of tutoring (RL), either them or me lost motivation/interest and it slowed the whole process down.

For my personal taste, learning a language takes waay too long - I learned a language IRL myself in the same amount of time.

One might say I did not do it in the most efficient way, but you'll most certainly find someone who can tell you exactly what to do to learn a language as fast as possible. And the first thing to do is cap out INT with spells and items to +12.
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Nitro
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Nitro » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:47 am

On the flip side, one of my characters with 18 INT learned a language in slightly over an RL week by spending 90% of their time around people speaking it.

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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Frostaspella » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:25 am

Make a bard..........
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Iceborn
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Iceborn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:27 am

*Writes three pages worth of rant about the language system*

I love the languages, but I don't like the binary way (Speak or giberish) they are implemented. It's one of those things that I suggest that should work differently every time that comes up.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

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I_Am_King_Midas
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by I_Am_King_Midas » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:01 pm

Can we get clarity on if lore helps with the learning part or just understanding?
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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:33 pm

Lore does not help with learning, only understanding.
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:01 pm

An addition that I understand from previous developers; please correct me if I misunderstand, it's been awhile since I've had this conversation.

The language gift does effectively increase your intelligence by 8 for the purposes of learning, but only to an effective cap of 26 (IIRC- it might be 28). You will still be able to learn MORE languages through the gift up to the maximum number of languages, but having 20 base intelligence or higher makes the language gift boost less than optimal (in terms of the speed at which you learn).

I seem to also recall that, based on the above, item bonuses to intelligence are not actually factored in? (At least not if you hit your effective cap from the first paragraph before magical bonuses, anyway).
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Dreams
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Dreams » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:42 pm

Languages + horses, the secrets of the universe that can't be possibly understood.

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Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:39 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Lore does not help with learning, only understanding.
Correct.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:I seem to also recall that, based on the above, item bonuses to intelligence are not actually factored in?
Correct.

Quantifying even roughly how long it takes to learn a language is really difficult to do consistently, because no one ever really learns consistently. You only hear so many lines of a language's dialogue from a fluent speaker in X amount of time, over the course of Y days, and you have Z base Intelligence... Anyone's anecdotes about how long or short it takes to learn a language may as well be true, and it'll almost always follow the same guidelines as I stated above, and I will repeat below.

The higher your base intelligence (+ Gift of Tongues) and the higher your immersion in the foreign language, the faster you learn.

I'm not one for unnecessary obfuscation of mechanics, but the circumstances in which a character learns languages varies so much from player to player and then hour to hour that nothing I say could apply to everyone equally. Read the bolded part above again.

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MalKalz
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Re: Question about learning languages

Post by MalKalz » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Also, there was a recent patch I pushed (end of December time) that fixed some of the rolls involved in languages. Before the roll for translating and speaking were nested together and have since been remedied.

You should see better results with translating and speaking the language. And, a lot less unintelligent gibberish popping up based on your level of progression (beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.)

That being said, as Batra pointed out, those with higher base INT will learn faster than those with lower.

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