How much Ride needed for using Horses

[BegoneThoth]

Can you post the math used so players can get a benchmark?

Any reason ride is complex mathematical algorithm as opposed to 'dc 20 for warhorse dc 25 for nightmare' like most skill checks?

[Kirito]

Can you post the math used so players can get a benchmark?

Any reason ride is complex mathematical algorithm as opposed to 'dc 20 for warhorse dc 25 for nightmare' like most skill checks?

Benchmark values have been given. 6 and 33 ranks. You can even guess that somewhere in the middle... say 16 ranks... you'll have a middling ability. Your ogre might not be able to ride that elven warhorse through the gates of hell but a sober human not heavily laden or with a crippling balance problem should do alright fighting ogres on a horse meant for fighting outside Cordor most of the time.

Why? because all the variables. you've been told this many times before and can read the example found earlier here demonstrating this.

[Dreams]

Some things make a lot of sense to be told FOIG. The Deck of Somethings, for example, shouldn't really be spoiled. But are the mechanics of 'How to ride a horse on Arelith' actually the same sort of sacred secret?

Imagine a player coming to the server and wanting to play a warlock. You may not tell the player the locations of NPCs that will allow them to enter a pact in game, however you would make available the information about the class, the spells it gets, the changes, and so on.

If the players understand the mechanics, they can make choices as players about the characters they play, which will lead to a greater sense of enjoyment on Arelith.

Edit: Was too slow to post. It has also been said that 33 ranks isn't enough.

[Kirito]

Some things make a lot of sense to be told FOIG. The Deck of Somethings, for example, shouldn't really be spoiled. But are the mechanics of 'How to ride a horse on Arelith' actually the same sort of sacred secret?

Imagine a player coming to the server and wanting to play a warlock. You may not tell the player the locations of NPCs that will allow them to enter a pact in game, however you would make available the information about the class, the spells it gets, the changes, and so on.

If the players understand the mechanics, they can make choices as players about the characters they play, which will lead to a greater sense of enjoyment on Arelith.

Edit: Was too slow to post. It has also been said that 33 ranks isn't enough.

It's not How to ride a horse (that's 6 ranks - and known) it's how to control an animal in a variety of situations. The result of failing to control it is falling off.

The idea of knowing the dc is closer to knowing the A.C. of every mob in arelith (for a new player). Any idea what AB you need to hit everything? What about everything but dragons?

Or better yet, knowing the animal empathy DC for every mob.


As for DC over 33, I've not checked it but have a suspicion 1 single set of combinations MIGHT be over 33. That s across all variable such as race and breed. I've probably also mentioned what that situation was before now too.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

What if someone just said spells “hurt things with x damage” like fireball does fire damage. Magic middle does magic damage. People like being able to know what they are actually getting into so they can make better decisions. There is a formula behind it all and it would be nice if it were shared. I dare say people in the know will invest an appropriate level of points to do what they are wanting to do. You can see how it would be frustrating to play to a high level and take the dip for ride you’ve been wanting and to realize it’s not enough. Or why havesomeone yake skill focus, epic skill focus, and increased kill points via items if it doesn’t matter? It’s nice to know how it matters and what it actually does.

[BegoneThoth]

The idea of knowing the dc is closer to knowing the A.C. of every mob in arelith (for a new player). Any idea what AB you need to hit everything? What about everything but dragons?

Or better yet, knowing the animal empathy DC for every mob.

But you learn AC and saves and skill checks by doing. With Ride you just fall off and take damage and nothing in the combat log like "Ride failed 3+17=20 vs DC 31"

So it's not the same.

[Freyason]

I have a question that might not be foig. Do bonuses from items/feats/abilities count in getting to 33?

[Lorkas]

You absolutely could learn by doing, in just the same way you learn the AC of mobs. You don't see the AC of a mob in your combat log, you just see what your attack roll was, and whether it was a hit or a miss. If you miss, you need more AB.

Neither will you see every variable in the Ride system, but you do see the result. If you fall off, you need more.

[BegoneThoth]

I suppose I don't understand why staying on a horse has to involve math so complex it can't be shared when everything else is d20 and clearly visible to anyone rolling. I don't see what is gained by veiling the numbers or having such a complex system at all.

[TimeAdept]

I don't understand why the ride system needs to account for a combination of factors including sobriety, rest, held weapon, equipped armor, race of creature being fought, area I'm in, and any numebr of other simulationist factors that add unneeded complexity to a system that should frankly be nothing but cosmetic.

The question "How much ride do I need to ride a horse?" shouldn't be answered with "Well, if you were riding drunk, half tired, but in the bendir dale, on a guldorand horse instead of a cordor horse, in the rain, but daytime, and encounter only animal, but not orcs, then you need 17 Ride."

The question ""How much ride do I need to ride a horse?" should be answered with "5 ranks to ride a common horse. 10 ranks for a warhorse. 'racial' mounts such as elven steeds, dwarven steeds, arcane steeds, require 20. Special unique mounts (FOIG!) will require 30."

Complexity for complexity's sake doesn't make a good system. All I'm seeing here is the answer is "take 33 ranks, because under no circumstances do you ever want to fall of your horse like an idiot. Therefore if you can't take max ranks, don't bother."

[Kirito]

I have a question that might not be foig. Do bonuses from items/feats/abilities count in getting to 33?

Natural Ranks OR Horse gift (5+ Character level)
And Dex helps too.

Items and feats help for speed
A.C. bonus is just ranks (like tumble) (or horse gift)

[Lorkas]

I suppose I don't understand why staying on a horse has to involve math so complex it can't be shared when everything else is d20 and clearly visible to anyone rolling. I don't see what is gained by veiling the numbers or having such a complex system at all.

It is far from the only system that has modifiers like this in place. It's like asking the question "How much spot do I need to detect a stealther?"

Well, how much stealth do they have? Are they moving? Are you? If so, are you walking with detect mode on or running? If you're running, are you an elf? How big are you, and how big are they? Are you in combat while you're trying to detect them? Are they in front of you, or behind you? Is it night or day? If it's night, are they carrying a light? Are you? If not, do you have darkvision?

[Cortex]

Apples and oranges, Lorkas. You aren't competing with another player that doesn't have static DCs.

[Lorkas]

Apples and oranges, Lorkas. You aren't competing with another player that doesn't have static DCs.

The thrust of the objection was that everything else in the game is simple ("d20" to be precise), and that simply isn't true, as demonstrated by the case of the detect system.

What's more, an important similarity between the two cases is that the PC isn't the only conscious actor involved--the horse itself is affected by the circumstances in ways that might differ from how the PC would respond, and certainly in ways that might make it more or less difficult to remain mounted.

One could just as well argue that the detect system's complexity is unnecessary as that the horse system's complexity is unnecessary.

[Cortex]

One's details are publically available. A purely mechanical aspect of the game should be public, or else, it's not too different from an update that says "some spells have been re-balanced", "druid shifting has been updated", "Blue Dragon Knight PrC has been added, check in game!".

[BegoneThoth]

I am tempted to make a new thread asking why it's necessary for Horses and Horse mechanics to be so complex they cannot be explained, in a d20 game whose rules are basically public domain and available to read for everyone.

Should I make a new thread or is that question relevant for this topic?

[Kirito]

One's details are publically available. A purely mechanical aspect of the game should be public, or else, it's not too different from an update that says "some spells have been re-balanced", "druid shifting has been updated", "Blue Dragon Knight PrC has been added, check in game!".

Boons are purely mechanical, they are not public available.
Enchanting god saves are mechanical, not publicly available.

To ride a horse you need 6 ranks.
To spot someone you need 1 rank.
To hide, 1 rank.

The non public bit isn't being able to ride it. It's being able to control something with free will. Like being able to spot anything. You don't have that knowledge

[Kirito]

Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.

[TimeAdept]

Dominate Monster lets me control somethnig with free will and the math behind that is easily publically known.

The math behind spotting is publically available, as is the way True Sight interacts with things.

What does the server gain from having a ride system so complex it cannot even be explained by its creators?

Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Because there's no benchmark. All that happens is you fall off. Is it because I was fighting an elf? Is it because I was holding a scimitar? Is it because I was """"drunk""""? Was it too hot? Too cold? In Guldorand instead of Sibayad, and my horse likes cold weather instead of hot weather?

There's no feedback, and the system is needlessly complex. It is impossible to learn about, and by your own admission, it is so complex you can't even explain it if you wanted to.

That is Not Good Design.

[Nitro]

The non public bit isn't being able to ride it. It's being able to control something with free will. Like being able to spot anything. You don't have that knowledge

Alright, what we're all actually asking for is the break values for being thrown off, and the ability to control something with free will is a bit of a poor analogy. We have animal empathy, and the NWN wiki gives us the exact formula for the DC there, 15+animals HD: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_empathy
It isn't all the information, since we don't have a list of all the islands HD, but that's something that's easier to find out in game, and it gives a ranger very clear knowledge of how much AE they should aim to invest in if they want to reliably be able to empathy an animal of similar level to themselves (15+level for guaranteed successes).

Is it really that unreasonable to get something at least similar for horses? It's not like horses are different from any of the other animals on the isle after all, and we already have the math and mechanics for how to control their free will.

EDIT:

Boons are purely mechanical, they are not public available.
Enchanting god saves are mechanical, not publicly available.

Also of note, both of these examples do not require that you invest an arbitrary number of skill points in them for them to work/not work. If deity saves required say craft armour to trigger, but only a certain amount then I'm pretty certain people would be wanting to know that amount too so they can build for it.

[One Two Three Five]

Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.

This is functionally identical, over time, to someone with access pulling up the code and posting 'okay you need this amount, this amount, and this amount,' except your version is a gigantic waste of time. I don't quite get why this (purely mechanical) aspect is being obfuscated? Every other skill in the entire game has well defined counters, break points, charts of how many points lets you do what thing.

In fact, so does ride, pre-y'all, over on the NWNwiki. Even the 'random and unpredictable' powers of wild mages are pulled off of a publicly available chart. Maybe, instead of just writing everyone off as complaining, the dev side could look at this from a player point of view- one in which skill points are limited, builds are specific, and mechanics have been known for a decade, and not just say 'somewhere between 6 and 33, lol'

Or at least just come out and say "It's not done, we don't really know."

[Cybernet21]

Guys,i think it's time to lock this thread.The discussion is starting to go in circles and i feel like some are starting to get a bit rude towards Kirito(so is the other way around happening).So let's just move on

Yes,i'm asking for this to be locked.

[flower]

Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.

You say that like building a character would be just two clicks.

Click 6 ride.

Not enough? Click and remove level, increase ride click click 20? Is it enough? No, click, remove level, re select level, add more sklil points...


Sadly, it does not work this way. You want ride? You must add int. Lower other stats.

You cannot plan out your character with these vague information.

Why is not wild mage chart as much vague? It would give much more sense than hiding things related to a skill. Wild mage can pre plan his magic better than player who wishs to plan a rider build.

[Hunter548]

Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.

I think the more likely course of action is "Grab a horse with six ride, fall off, put more points in, eventually get killed because you fell off the horse, delevel and drop the ride ranks, never touch horses again". I know I don't to ever touch this system again, and I imagine I'm not alone in that conviction given that apparently the only metric to avoid possible death is to be level 30.

[Harasha]

I think it is fair to point out that the homebrewed aspects of this game aren't bug-free, little scripting errors happen and have to be fixed when discovered in game. This is not a complaint, just the way it works when there aren't a fleet of paid testers on hand for every update.

If the system is inscrutable you don't know if your failure to see it work is because you didn't build right, if there's a mistake in code or if it's broken because the server has been up for two days and needs a reset.

I can't see investing in experimenting on a character like a fighter or cleric where skill points are few and precious. I do have a wizard who'll probably have skill points to burn and maybe she will try. But that also begs the question, if you figure it out are you allowed to share the info? I have a hard time figuring out how to explain it in game and don't want to cause trouble doing so OOC.