A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

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Wytchee
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:40 am

DarkDreamer wrote:Well maybe ask them why them why, maybe there's a reason?
People are going to justify it any way they can, but since there's no rule against it, I'm not going to go out of my way to bring it up in tells with someone while I'm in game.

When a totem druid adopts a totem form, they aren't merely taking the shape of that animal. They become that animal in nature and spirit. Animals do not speak in Common. This is my personal interpretation and is TOTALLY a hill I'm willing to die on. :lol:

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Improv wrote:C'mon, don't complain about a specific player's RP on the forum and don't be condescending.

Maybe the forgot to type -an, maybe they're new, maybe they have a reason they think it's okay, maybe they don't read the forums to know the way the wind blows on the subject. Just because something like that is a pet peeve to you doesn't mean someone else has the same awareness or priority. Send a friendly tell with your opinion and lead by example.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Miaou » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:36 am

Because this thread get posted all the time, I'll just quote what I said last time.
Miaou wrote:Hi, I play a character that polymorphs often.

How I do it is consider the form I am taking. Is it reasonable that form can speak? Can it physically make the words form in it's mouth? For instance. A bear can grunt and growl, but it can't form a "normal" language. A dragon, on the other hand, has been proven to be able to speak multiple languages. My take on elemental shapes is they speak through magic, as they are an element itself, so can speak any language.

With this in mind, the forms that do not have the ability to easily speak any language other than their own, I use animal. And most of the time I am emote heavy. Body language is everything. Hunched back, lowered belly, swishing tail, whiskers pulled back, snarling, "bouncing" spider body. I try to get an idea across of my polymorphed character's general mood or reaction through emotes.

One thing I have seen is people just speaking in common as a wolf, or elven, dwarven, what have you. No reasoning behind it. When questioned, they either ignore it or say "Magic". I find this a bit lazy. One really cool idea was they used magic to make the words form from nature around them. The wind brushes against the leaves just right, and words are formed. It was actually pretty interesting and was better simply saying "magic" causes it. It gave explanation, and perhaps a talking point with the character of how it works, and maybe teaching it. Leads to interesting interactions!

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by TheDoctor » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Disney got this right when they made that boy into a squirrel.



Guess the movie for a cookie.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:50 pm

Miaou wrote:Because this thread get posted all the time, I'll just quote what I said last time.
Miaou wrote:Hi, I play a character that polymorphs often.

How I do it is consider the form I am taking. Is it reasonable that form can speak? Can it physically make the words form in it's mouth? For instance. A bear can grunt and growl, but it can't form a "normal" language. A dragon, on the other hand, has been proven to be able to speak multiple languages. My take on elemental shapes is they speak through magic, as they are an element itself, so can speak any language.

With this in mind, the forms that do not have the ability to easily speak any language other than their own, I use animal. And most of the time I am emote heavy. Body language is everything. Hunched back, lowered belly, swishing tail, whiskers pulled back, snarling, "bouncing" spider body. I try to get an idea across of my polymorphed character's general mood or reaction through emotes.

One thing I have seen is people just speaking in common as a wolf, or elven, dwarven, what have you. No reasoning behind it. When questioned, they either ignore it or say "Magic". I find this a bit lazy. One really cool idea was they used magic to make the words form from nature around them. The wind brushes against the leaves just right, and words are formed. It was actually pretty interesting and was better simply saying "magic" causes it. It gave explanation, and perhaps a talking point with the character of how it works, and maybe teaching it. Leads to interesting interactions!
The reasoning should be regularly emoted, too. Maybe a gnomish inventor made a magic box that translates your grunts and squeaks into comprehensible language. Maybe you're using magic to manipulate the air around you into intelligible whispers. That's cool. But it should be emoted regularly to reinforce that roleplay, otherwise it's just, as you said, pure laziness.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by DarkDreamer » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:25 pm

TheDoctor wrote:Disney got this right when they made that boy into a squirrel.



Guess the movie for a cookie.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Miaou » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:35 pm

Wytchee wrote:
The reasoning should be regularly emoted, too. Maybe a gnomish inventor made a magic box that translates your grunts and squeaks into comprehensible language. Maybe you're using magic to manipulate the air around you into intelligible whispers. That's cool. But it should be emoted regularly to reinforce that roleplay, otherwise it's just, as you said, pure laziness.
Oh yes. The druid I met regularly mentioned how the voice would come from around them. Each time someone new came, and it was unique as it was interesting to see how it effected things like emotion. Leaves shaking around for annoyance or anger, a calming breeze with it when being kind. The lack of a breeze while the druid though and nothing was being said. It was extremely interesting. It wasn't just "magic, get over it". It had a cause one can see, it was interesting to interact with.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Black Wendigo » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:58 pm

I'm not going to judge people on smoething like this, which I feel is pretty trivial. Personally, I would never let my druid speak anything other than animal language while polymorphed into an animal.While it's true that while in an animal form this does not make the druid animal (necessarily), I feel that the animal would not have right mouth shape to be able to speak.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:03 pm

It's not that I'm/we're judging people on this, but there are some modes of roleplay that some (read: I) feel are detrimental to certain in-game communities. When paladins roleplay in silly ways, it's detrimental to the server's paladin RP as a whole. When clerics run around summoning devas as a party trick, it's detrimental to cleric RP as a whole. Etc. etc.

This is a particularly touchy subject for me because Druid is far and away my favorite class, but every time I have tried to ingratiate one of my druids into Arelith's druid community, I've been discouraged. All of my druids have been loners for this reason.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by rookie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:24 am

Wytchee wrote:It's not that I'm/we're judging people on this, but there are some modes of roleplay that some (read: I) feel are detrimental to certain in-game communities. When paladins roleplay in silly ways, it's detrimental to the server's paladin RP as a whole. When clerics run around summoning devas as a party trick, it's detrimental to cleric RP as a whole. Etc. etc.

This is a particularly touchy subject for me because Druid is far and away my favorite class, but every time I have tried to ingratiate one of my druids into Arelith's druid community, I've been discouraged. All of my druids have been loners for this reason.
The problem in my eyes is some of the posts above and in other threads come off as a bit smug regardless of me agreeing with you. People are not likely to come around to your viewpoint this way.

Another issue is barring you being a DM, you only have your own limited perspective to judge what is good for the server. Sure someone may be doing something that is not A+ RP out of ignorance, but if another comes along and disparages them for it and they quit then you may lose a potential good RPer once they had more experience on Arelith.

For a community like this, leading by example is better IMO. Instead of saying "all these people are doing it wrong", form a faction with other like minded people that are doing it correctly in your mind and be inclusive and helpful.
Last edited by rookie on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:10 am

If I come off as smug, it's really only a result of my frustration with Arelith druid RP. There's been some good druid roleplayers who have tried to "lead by example" with limited success.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by DarkDreamer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:16 am

No player is entitled to tell any player they are doing it wrong at any time. If you don't approve of the RP, contact a DM.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:17 am

DarkDreamer wrote:No player is entitled to tell any player they are doing it wrong at any time. If you don't approve of the RP, contact a DM.
I'll be sure to do that next time.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Ork » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:18 am

I mean.. Wytchee isn't wrong.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by DarkDreamer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:25 am

Right or wrong, players are not here to police other players, thats what DMs are for.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:33 am

Let me just say that It wasn't my intention to "police" anyone. The DM already ruled, in this thread, that speaking common while in animal form was allowed, but that you should expect your RPR to reflect that action. I was only expressing my frustration, albeit in an tactless way that I now realize was rather callous; chalk it up to "constructive criticism" having failed in the past.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Miaou » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:46 am

rookie wrote: The problem in my eyes is some of the posts above and in other threads come off as a bit smug regardless of me agreeing with you. People are not likely to come around to your viewpoint this way.
The thread is an open question, with the possibility of DMs weighing in, which they did. A discussion of something does need to have a "winner", and changing people's views isn't always the end goal to a discussion. Sharing of thoughts and outlooks is just as good.
DarkDreamer wrote:No player is entitled to tell any player they are doing it wrong at any time. If you don't approve of the RP, contact a DM.
DarkDreamer wrote:Right or wrong, players are not here to police other players, thats what DMs are for.
Nobody is telling any player to do anything. People are expressing their opinions on something in a mostly civilized way. There is no policing, there is nothing except discussion going on. So what if Wytchee or others has a different view than you? It's a discussion over something people had questions about and wished to have other's views on the subject.

We are all aware that if there are issues, the DMs are to be brought into the situation. Just because we are players and not DMs does not bar us from discussing lore, style of roleplay, or concepts that relate to the game we all play.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by rookie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 am

Miaou wrote: The thread is an open question, with the possibility of DMs weighing in, which they did. A discussion of something does need to have a "winner", and changing people's views isn't always the end goal to a discussion. Sharing of thoughts and outlooks is just as good.
I don't have an issue with that, I even agree with Witchee's viewpoint on it. My issue is with how it is presented earlier in this and other threads. Someone else even called out in the first page that targeting the RP of individuals even when unnamed is a bad idea. There is a difference between discussing thoughts and judging the RP of players.

I'd say that the method that you present something is at least as important as the actual content. Especially on something like the right way to play make believe.

There are some fantasy settings that have talking animals. Heck druids can make them with Awaken in 3.0/3.5 so there are already talking wolves/cats/etc that are related to druids. Pretty much all 9th+ level druids should have magically talking animal companions by the book.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence...

An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that the character knows, plus one additional language that the character knows per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
The rules are pretty clear that it doesn't apply for wildshape, but it is not like a talking animal is an alien concept in D&D. I'm still against the idea of talking dogs, but I don't see it as some sin against the server.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Miaou » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:19 am

rookie wrote: There are some fantasy settings that have talking animals. Heck druids can make them with Awaken in 3.0/3.5 so there are already talking wolves/cats/etc that are related to druids. Pretty much all 9th+ level druids should have magically talking animal companions by the book.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence...

An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that the character knows, plus one additional language that the character knows per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
The rules are pretty clear that it doesn't apply for wildshape, but it is not like a talking animal is an alien concept in D&D. I'm still against the idea of talking dogs, but I don't see it as some sin against the server.
It is not a wild concept for an animal to speak language such as common, elven, dwarven, etc. I agree with that. But for me, it depends on how one does it. If one casted the Awaken spell on a companion and it began to speak, emotes supporting it? I'd be fine with it. If there is a reason for it given, and it's shown ingame? I'm all for it. When there's no reason given, I can't see a reason for it other than "I can".

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by rookie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:32 am

It is why I was referring to ignorance of the players. In D&D it is pretty laid out how wildshape works. In other RPGs/literature they have shapeshifters that can speak while in the form of an animal because that's the way the magic works there.

To me personally I don't expect my fellow players to have the same amount of D&D knowledge as I do, nor do I expect their idea of fantasy to match up perfectly with mine. I tend to attribute actions like that more towards a different frame of reference and ignorance to the finer elements of the setting than a bad/lazy attitude.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:04 pm

As someone who has played an epic druid, and decided that, after reaching 21 levels of pure druid, I was going to try and make something interesting out of being able to talk while in wildshape...I do not really care what Wytchee or anyone else thinks of it or where they plant their flags.

That comes out of two main reasons:

1) I am confident enough in my skills as a roleplayer to know I could, and did, pull it off, despite anyone else's class-policing.

2) Only if a DM reached out to me (which none ever did), wwould I have stopped.

To conclude: if it is allowed mechanicaly and ruleswise, it falls under everything else that DMs look after: solidity and coherence of rp, in regards to the game world.

Folk are free to discuss and talk and debate all they like. It can even be fun. But that is as far as it goes.

And as a last piece of advice, if you have doubts about spme idea you have, the dms are also there to go through those with you and advise you on ways to realize them.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:34 pm

You are free to roleplay however you like, Borin. No one is disputing that.

Just don't be surprised if/when other players find your talking animal weird and jarring and start directing their roleplay away from you.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:56 pm

I fully agree with you on that, and I would expect it to be so. That is how it should be.

And btw, I fully understand your reasoning for disliking the whole thing. I just disagree with it, as we have discussed in some other thread.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by LichBait » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:59 pm

I'm pretty much of the same mindset as Wytchee about a talking wildshaped druid. Sitting as some animal and talking about the latest gossip would be... jarring to say the least, and I've 180'd before to avoid that kind of stuff on my PCs.

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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:40 pm

I've seen totem-shifted druids speaking in common/elven/whatever done incredibly well, and also seen it done incredibly badly.

When it is done well, by a confident, competent, well informed and inventive roleplayer, the effect can be amazing... Spooky and mystical, impressive, absorbing and immersive.

However, when done badly or without sufficient thought, it comes over as a cartoon talking dog.

The difference between the two is the ability of the player.

What does this mean? Well... You can't draw a hard line and say "talking in common when wildshaped is bad roleplay", because that statement is frankly mindblowingly stupid when you take into account the way it can be done by someone who knows their game.

If we start writing off potentially legitimate ideas as "bad roleplay" when infact what we mean is "bad roleplayers do this lazily and without thought for its effect", then we run the risk of stifling some very inventive and absorbing content coming from the players here.
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Re: A Question Regarding Totem Druids and Talking Animals

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:52 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:I've seen totem-shifted druids speaking in common/elven/whatever done incredibly well, and also seen it done incredibly badly.

When it is done well, by a confident, competent, well informed and inventive roleplayer, the effect can be amazing... Spooky and mystical, impressive, absorbing and immersive.

However, when done badly or without sufficient thought, it comes over as a cartoon talking dog.

The difference between the two is the ability of the player.

What does this mean? Well... You can't draw a hard line and say "talking in common when wildshaped is bad roleplay", because that statement is frankly mindblowingly stupid when you take into account the way it can be done by someone who knows their game.

If we start writing off potentially legitimate ideas as "bad roleplay" when infact what we mean is "bad roleplayers do this lazily and without thought for its effect", then we run the risk of stifling some very inventive and absorbing content coming from the players here.
This point has been made by Miaou. Using the wind to form whispers, for instance. I'd say a parrot can get away with limited speech, too. The issue is with those that don't bother to emote, but just explain it lazily away as "magic" or "you see, my druid is sooo wise."

There's a difference between using good emotes and explaining why your character talks while in animal form and a wolf totem just straight up being "Yo whaddup dawg!"
Last edited by Wytchee on Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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