Druid & Mummy dust & Undeath. The definitive question.

[Improv]

Well.. I like the idea of giving people leeway to use their imagination based on the mechanical tools we have available, and I can see a case for- say- an evil monster shaman of an evil monster nature god to be druid-based and maybe, they could use undead if they were very well-played and justified.

But at the same time life would probably be a lot easier if you just played a cleric.

[BegoneThoth]

Well.. I like the idea of giving people leeway to use their imagination based on the mechanical tools we have available, and I can see a case for- say- an evil monster shaman of an evil monster nature god to be druid-based and maybe, they could use undead if they were very well-played and justified.

But at the same time life would probably be a lot easier if you just played a cleric.

Yeah but mummy dusting while in edr 3 ele monolith form with an animal companion sounds fun

[Dreams]

Druids should not use undead.

An option for EMD could be to reskin to a natural thing for druids, for example, stone elemental?

[BegoneThoth]

Druids should not use undead.

If it was not meant to be taken, then the feat should be disabled for druids.

But since it's there, it can be taken. Any player doing it should be expected to RP it.

Frankly I find it a bit cruel if a feat can just be taken that results in instant illegal roleplay, if it's not allowed. (But I think it is, if justified)

[One Two Three Five]

I mean, that was an NWN dev decision, not necessarily a roleplay one. To steal a tabletop forum term, it's a case of rules as written vs rules as intended. Yes, it's possible 'by RAW' but a clearly bad idea in a roleplaying setting.

[hoshi]

Epic Spells were not class defined in the Epic Handbook usually, the NWN devs did limit some to specific classes, but probably left Mummy Dust druid enabled for modding as I've seen on other servers. Mechanically it is a pretty trashy feat for druids anyway on Arelith as Elemental Swarm outperforms it with epic scaling and EDK is superior for the "I need a summon right now without shifting out".

As far as RAW/RAI goes, it is like a good cleric of a good god using undead. Mechanically they can but from the vast majority of lore they're not supposed to. There are some exceptions but doesn't hurt to chat with a DM about it as they (plus admins) are the final arbiters.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Druids should not use undead.

If it was not meant to be taken, then the feat should be disabled for druids.

But since it's there, it can be taken. Any player doing it should be expected to RP it.

Frankly I find it a bit cruel if a feat can just be taken that results in instant illegal roleplay, if it's not allowed. (But I think it is, if justified)

It's not allowed.

Druid Rules from the Wiki.

"Druids seek to put an end to the living dead as they see this as a being that has no place in the pattern of life, and serves no function there. It is an aberration to the cycle which can sometimes be produced by natural means, yet still has no place in nature and should be done away with. A druid looks at a bird and sees it's functions in the environment around it, how everything it does effects a chain of life. The undead have no ties to this cycle and are therefor the opposites of what druid strive to achieve."

Any druid that acts against the cycle of nature will be either punished by a high council of druids, or be stripped of their title and druidic connections and abilities.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Druid

[Nitro]

Remember that the wiki is written by players, not the staff for the most part. Anything on there is a suggestion unless directly quoting one of the DM's. Arelith only has 5 direct rules after all.

[Queen Titania]

Druids can choose the Mummy dust epic spell and get access to top tier undead
This is within current game mechanics.


Of course, mechanic wise it makes no sense since their regular summons are so much better, but they *can* still do it.

Now most druids hate undead and most druids will never use metal.

But Mielliki (Patron of good druids and rangers, Forest queen) allows druids to use metal and Talona (Mistress of poison and disease, bringer of death) doesn't like to turn undead ( http://matthewfenn.ipage.com/nj-pbem/da ... Talona.htm ) but doesn't shun those who summon them ( http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barjin ).

Can I make a druid of Talona that uses the Mummy dust epic spell, or would i be penalized for it for violating my character's class requeriments?

I've never seen the metal thing or the undead thing enforced by DMS (I once saw a GOOD druid being penalyzed for torturing someone with the aid of necromancers, but that had to do with alignment not druidry). Still, it's an unspoken OOC thing that gets other players to send you tells questioning your life choices, and i'd like to get a real answer about.

Now before anyone brings it up, i'm not talking about 5% roll blighter. This druid would not try to burn the forest but help it In his on twisted way, and sending a group of voodoo zombies to eat up intruders would be one of his tools in doing so.

**** ADDENDUM/EDIT: Just tought about another point to this question. Druid/shifters can take undead shape. What gives about that in regards to this question ?

**** Second edit: I'm aware that this concept would be hated and revilled by most other druids IC.

Yes, you can make a druid that summons undead, just select an appropriate alignment, and you'll be fine.

[BegoneThoth]

There it is.

EDR 3 talassan mummy dust monolith fire form druid city here i come

[caldura firebourne]

Given an appropriate alignment and corresponding deity, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. The Norm for druids is pretty well set in stone, and more than likely you'll have a great deal of opposition, but go for it, don't get discouraged, because it's exactly that kind of conflict that changes the norm and drives roleplay beyond stagnation.

A brilliant concept, and now I'm jealous I didn't come up with it first

[Wytchee]

I was constantly sent tells questioning my RP for having my druid join the Cordor guard, but I guess druid necromancers are ok now. Whew.

Truth is dead. Everything is a lie!

Also, while the concept is certainly cool, Elemental Swarm still puts the vampires to shame mechanically.

[chris a gogo]

Sounds like a terrible idea from an RP stand point as druids don't have access to any undead creation spells and can not use the cleric scrolls to make them either.
So really you would be playing a druid that isn't a necromancer until they hit epic then suddenly become one.

[BegoneThoth]

Sounds like a terrible idea from an RP stand point as druids don't have access to any undead creation spells and can not use the cleric scrolls to make them either.
So really you would be playing a druid that isn't a necromancer until they hit epic then suddenly become one.

They're no paladins, and characters grow as they level. New abilities are part of D&D!

[Xerah]

You’re much much better off with conjuration focus and dragon knight, but at least this opens up some new options!

[Cortex]

This is a decision that you will later regret.

[Hexgoblin]

This sounds really iffy to me, personally.

The druidic opposition to undeath isn't something I ever viewed as a moral issue, but one drawing its roots from preservation of natural balance itself. That which druids regardless of alignment are sworn to uphold. Undead are animated by negative energy. Druids also use negative energy, aswell as positive. That's part of the whole balance aspect.

However. Negative energy in abundance, without a counterpart, will cause natural life to wilt. Undead in a way are beacons radiating death, who also happen to exist outside of the spectrum of natural balance, in that they're consumers that contribute nothing.

The environmental negative effects of undead furthermore scale with the potency of the creature in question. As an example, if you look into vampires, you'll see that the lair of a vampire is surrounded by swathes of dead land and warped wildlife, wilted by the energy the creature passively releases by just existing somewhere for a time. Mummy Dust implies some fairly high-end undead creatures at play.

It's not as if other non-undead means aren't availible to the character, so if employing them, do they remain adherent to the very oathbound nature of druidism? I suppose that's up for debate.

This might be an opinion rooted in personal bias, but at some point, you cross the line of where controversial flexibility comes into conflict with peoples' core perception of something. You know, where people go "I really wish this wasn't a thing", instead of "hey, that's interesting". To me, the latter there would probably be a Talonite cleric with nature themed domains, or perhaps a tribal sorcerer as a preferable alternative to accomodate the concept in question. In that you're effectively accomplishing the same thing, without what comes across as very needless controversy.

[Hunter548]

I think it's worth noting that, DM decisions beside, your druid is going to have an undead caster level (The metric that determines what undead you get) of zero. So you quite possibly will end up with three really bad skeletons/zombies.

[Xanos950]

I think it's worth noting that, DM decisions beside, your druid is going to have an undead caster level (The metric that determines what undead you get) of zero. So you quite possibly will end up with three really bad skeletons/zombies.

I know you can't trust the wiki at all, but still.

"The Undead Caster Level is either your full cleric levels, or your added total of wizard, sorcerer and pale master levels. The UCL becomes irrelevant once you get the Epic Mummy Dust feat, enabling the fourth and fifth tiers. "

[Roketter]

Thanks for the answer Titania! You'r the best Fey Dm

This is a decision that you will later regret.

What, you mean when i'll regret it after i've spent 3 feats in necromancy focus and one in mummy dust which aren't even better than what the free lvl 17 spell elemental swarm provides, or that i'll regret it when the druidic brigade of public decency kidnap my char and throw it head first into a piranha river ?

[Queen Titania]

This sounds really iffy to me, personally.

The druidic opposition to undeath isn't something I ever viewed as a moral issue, but one drawing its roots from preservation of natural balance itself. That which druids regardless of alignment are sworn to uphold. Undead are animated by negative energy. Druids also use negative energy, aswell as positive. That's part of the whole balance aspect.

However. Negative energy in abundance, without a counterpart, will cause natural life to wilt. Undead in a way are beacons radiating death, who also happen to exist outside of the spectrum of natural balance, in that they're consumers that contribute nothing.

The environmental negative effects of undead furthermore scale with the potency of the creature in question. As an example, if you look into vampires, you'll see that the lair of a vampire is surrounded by swathes of dead land and warped wildlife, wilted by the energy the creature passively releases by just existing somewhere for a time. Mummy Dust implies some fairly high-end undead creatures at play.

It's not as if other non-undead means aren't availible to the character, so if employing them, do they remain adherent to the very oathbound nature of druidism? I suppose that's up for debate.

This might be an opinion rooted in personal bias, but at some point, you cross the line of where controversial flexibility comes into conflict with peoples' core perception of something. You know, where people go "I really wish this wasn't a thing", instead of "hey, that's interesting". To me, the latter there would probably be a Talonite cleric with nature themed domains, or perhaps a tribal sorcerer as a preferable alternative to accomodate the concept in question. In that you're effectively accomplishing the same thing, without what comes across as very needless controversy.

My personal position on this is that you can have druids that care about nature but make terrible decisions, at least as viewed from the regular druid's standpoint, such as utilizing undead. I don't know how the druid would play out 100%, but there's plenty of ways to go about this, from a druid that realizes the risks of undead but refuses to change their mind out of pride, or believes that these formerly nature-hating souls now animated must serve their time in penance protecting it.

By all means other characters can, will, and probably should decry how terrible this druid is just as you would as a tieifling who rises to lead a settlement or large faction, and make all the claims about them going against what a druid should stand for as you put down. This concept has clear mechanical disadvantage and negative appearances, but both of those things can also make it very fun to play for some people, and I can see it brewing conflict. The concept to me comes across as a flawed druid rather than an anti-druid, which is brilliant, and we do want players to have creative where they can.

If it becomes a huge problem down the road, and every druid starts animating, that's something else, but as of now I'd like to give the player trust to wield this concept well, and I believe they can do that.

~Titania

[One Two Three Five]

I think you're 100% wrong, both due to how druid lore works, and from an integrity of how the classes should work and be interpreted standpoint, and that this view is going to have bad results in the future...

But if the DM team's view is 'Druids can summon undead,' then the DM team's view is that druids can summon undead. Another question for you, then: If druids, the main non-paladin opponents to undead, are now given carte blanche to summon undead- can people of any alignment do so? If even the champions of the natural world can do it against all logic, surely there are 'good reasons' for those of neutral and good alignments to do so as well?

[BegoneThoth]

It's not really fair to compare druids to paladins as one is not the other.

Remember you can serve a deity that is both nature and openly supports and encourages evil undeath in their dogma.

[Xerah]

are now given carte blanche to summon undead- can people of any alignment do so?

Animate dead has never been alignment restricted. It's a pretty poor idea to do it as a LG or any kind of good, and you may not stay that way afterwards.

[One Two Three Five]

It's not really fair to compare druids to paladins as one is not the other.

Remember you can serve a deity that is both nature and openly supports and encourages evil undeath in their dogma.

Osiran paladin/cleric with mummy dust then. Fine?

Animate dead has never been alignment restricted. It's a pretty poor idea to do it as a LG or any kind of good, and you may not stay that way afterwards.

Right, because the way the lore of the setting works, summoning undead is an evil act, yes? Just like druids doing so is undruidic. Their opposition to undead is a basic part of their class lore. One would expect, then, for a druid summoning undead to not be a druid for long.

Or is this the one magical exception to the shared setting we're participating in?