Druid & Mummy dust & Undeath. The definitive question.

[Roketter]

Druids can choose the Mummy dust epic spell and get access to top tier undead
This is within current game mechanics.


Of course, mechanic wise it makes no sense since their regular summons are so much better, but they *can* still do it.

Now most druids hate undead and most druids will never use metal.

But Mielliki (Patron of good druids and rangers, Forest queen) allows druids to use metal and Talona (Mistress of poison and disease, bringer of death) doesn't like to turn undead ( http://matthewfenn.ipage.com/nj-pbem/da ... Talona.htm ) but doesn't shun those who summon them ( http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barjin ).

Can I make a druid of Talona that uses the Mummy dust epic spell, or would i be penalized for it for violating my character's class requeriments?

I've never seen the metal thing or the undead thing enforced by DMS (I once saw a GOOD druid being penalyzed for torturing someone with the aid of necromancers, but that had to do with alignment not druidry). Still, it's an unspoken OOC thing that gets other players to send you tells questioning your life choices, and i'd like to get a real answer about.

Now before anyone brings it up, i'm not talking about 5% roll blighter. This druid would not try to burn the forest but help it In his on twisted way, and sending a group of voodoo zombies to eat up intruders would be one of his tools in doing so.

**** ADDENDUM/EDIT: Just tought about another point to this question. Druid/shifters can take undead shape. What gives about that in regards to this question ?

**** Second edit: I'm aware that this concept would be hated and revilled by most other druids IC.

[One Two Three Five]

I have no comment on this other than to throw down the fact that Osiris, Lawful Good Mulhorandi deity has druids, supports mummies, and personally appears as a tomb-guardian style mummy.

[RedGiant]

I was actually on the verge of suggesting Mummy Dust be overwritten with a custom Arelith summons, since this would totally be hated as you mentioned.

[BegoneThoth]

Many druid gods support undead use.

[Roketter]

I was actually on the verge of suggesting Mummy Dust be overwritten with a custom Arelith summons, since this would totally be hated as you mentioned.

Yeah but being hated is an excellent way to establish yourself as a villain or nuisance. Most of my failed villains failed because they where not hated enough and thus not fun to play.

If they don't hate you (i mean Ic hate obviously, not ooc crazyness) then they won't come at you or try to foil your plans and then you'r just a guy in the middle of nowhere who claims he is evil and no one cares.

[frightnight]

"**** ADDENDUM/EDIT: Just tought about another point to this question. Druid/shifters can take undead shape. What gives about that in regards to this question ?
"

ive always wanted to play a build that focused around that vampire shape...someone linked me a build a while back with it...BG goes well with it since it gives you access to divine might and divine shield and that works while shifted...I think monk would help too..although I think DMs might have did something with that considering what happened to dragonshifters

[Wytchee]

Many druid gods support undead use.

It's generally agreed on Arelith that druids (all druids, even evil ones) detest undead, as they upset the balance. Druids can be blighters given a 5% roll, but druids running around with undead in tow are, I imagine, going to have a chat with the DMs eventually.

If you want to play a nature-y divine caster of Talona, play a cleric with plant domain.

Yes, some FR gods like Osiris permit the use of mummies and stuff for druids. But we have few agreed upon norms and one of those is that druids hate undead with no exceptions.

ive always wanted to play a build that focused around that vampire shape...someone linked me a build a while back with it...BG goes well with it since it gives you access to divine might and divine shield and that works while shifted...I think monk would help too..although I think DMs might have did something with that considering what happened to dragonshifters

Best vampire build right now would be vampire barbarian kensai :3 Just make sure no one ever figures out you're a vampire, and you're essentially invincible to most things on the server.

As for undead shape, you're not actually creating or taking away life; you're just transmuting. It's debatable, though, since while you're undead you're not technically alive.

[Roketter]

Many druid gods support undead use.

It's generally agreed on Arelith that druids (all druids, even evil ones) detest undead, as they upset the balance. Druids can be blighters given a 5% roll, but druids running around with undead in tow are, I imagine, going to have a chat with the DMs eventually.

Yeah that! I want to have the chat with the Dms !

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I have no comment on this other than to throw down the fact that Osiris, Lawful Good Mulhorandi deity has druids, supports mummies, and personally appears as a tomb-guardian style mummy.

Ssshh, keep the eastern kingdoms a secret so we don't get an influx of Imhoteps.

edit: While I usually refrain from agreeing to Arelith norms (because screw what lorebooks say), I do think Wytchee has kind of a point. In the spirit of Arelith, I think it's more preferential to see hippo druids of Isis and tomb-guardian clerics of Osiris.

Overall, druid roleplay on Arelith is obsessed with a hippie normative definition of "the Balance." I still think it remains one of the most stagnating playerbase-accepted philosophies - perhaps even the most so, now that Light Keep imploded.

However, I don't think challenging the norm through creating something so diametrically the opposite is a good way about initiating that kind of dialogue.

[Roketter]

I have no comment on this other than to throw down the fact that Osiris, Lawful Good Mulhorandi deity has druids, supports mummies, and personally appears as a tomb-guardian style mummy.

Ssshh, keep the eastern kingdoms a secret so we don't get an influx of Imhoteps.

Druid Imothep... what animal companion to choose ? I think a kitty-cat would be fine.



But back on topic I think i'm asking a valid question. If my druidic god allows undead and i go and summon one then whose fault is it ? Not even mentioning Talos (another druidic deity) who's a big fat necromancer.

[Wytchee]

It's not something I'm religious about.

If people want to change what defines a druid, more power to them. More options, more variation, more RP is always good. But that's a slippery slope. Some norms should remain norms for the sake of consistency, lest we start seeing the proliferation of surface-dwelling Drow/RDD/Paladins of Sune (with fairy wings).

[Scurvy Cur]

I'd personally stay away from it, tbh.

[Roketter]

It's not that i'm picky and want to be the special one, but there are some serious limitations to playing an evil druid that i didn't mention in the original post.

A lot of evil characters use or are associated with characters that use undead. It's like the evil cooties, hard to avoid once your' into it.

Now here's the dilema. Let's say i'm an evil Druid. Now lets say you'r an evil Talos wizard and our friend Suzy is an evil Talos Cleric and Jeremy, the guy we just met to join our party is a Blackguard of Talos.

Druid: Yarr want to destroy human settlements, keep nature to the animals only.
Wizard: Yarr, i'm a madman! want to use and test these new destructive spells to cause destruction!
Cleric: Yarr, I must bring destruction in the name of the Stormlord! The end is coming!!!
Blackguard: Yarr, I shall carve their hearts with my sword, behead them with my axe and sacrifice the remains to Talos!

Druid: We should ally and bring destruction together friends!
Wizard: Yes! That would be swell!
Cleric: Talos bless us with mayhem and destruction!
Blackguard: And my axe! Ehrm.. i mean mee too!

Druid: Let's cast our best spells!

Wizard, cleric and blackguard: Summon undead!!!
Druid: I shall never speak to the trio of you again, and i will associate myself only with the neutral druids of Silvanus that live in the grove with the dancing dryads, and try make them understand the value of Talos instead. So long you perverts!

[Wytchee]

When a druid stops fighting to maintain the balance, the druid loses access to her divine powers and ceases to be a druid. That is the whole point of being a druid: maintaining the balance.

IC debates can be waged over what, exactly, constitutes maintaining the balance.

But it's generally agreed upon that undead are abominations the very existence of which threatens to upset the balance. A druid who tolerates undead or regularly fraternizes with necromancers isn't a very good druid. Yes, that is limiting. But that's the gist of druidry.

If you want to be a nature-themed necromancer, as others have said, play a cleric of Osiris or something... though that would require you to be lawful good and whooboy that's a whole other discussion...

[Roketter]

When a druid stops fighting to maintain the balance, the druid loses access to her divine powers and ceases to be a druid. That is the whole point of being a druid: maintaining the balance.

IC debates can be waged over what, exactly, constitutes maintaining the balance.

But it's generally agreed upon that undead are abominations the very existence of which threatens to upset the balance. A druid who tolerates undead or regularly fraternizes with necromancers isn't a very good druid. Yes, that is limiting. But that's the gist of druidry in FR.

I don't agree, because who can tell the druid what the balance is but their god himself/herself?

Talona dwells in infested regions, Auril prefers deadly cold mountains, Umberlee lurks in the seas, Malar roams every forest with his hunt, and all of them are constantly trying to *change* the balance by invading each other's territory. PRedatory evil natured gods are not STATIC. Of course others like Mielliki, Silvanus, Eldath, etc. are all believe to be about preserving the status quo, purifying the tainted and protecting what *they* see as the balance, but truth to the matter, they are as invasive as the others.

Their vision of balance differs from what other druids think. A druid of Malar at forest of despair ? At home. A druid of Eldath at forest of despair ? Desperately trying to heal the land and stop the forest's agression and make it more "Eldath Like".

So no they dont' agree in what "the balance" fundamentally IS. Druids who follow their faiths must neccesarily get involved in their deities agenda, else they would not fulfill their religious mandates, and they do get their spells from those gods so their powers would be null if they did nothing. So if their god aren't concerned about undead breaking the balance, why should they?

Of course none of these gods, good or evil go around creating Zombie armies (well Talos does.. but that's an extreme), but their druids already have a hard cap on how far they can go with these skills. Remember mummy dust can only be used once a day and unlike other classes, druids get no regular necromancy summons, so the class is already mechanically limited in that respect

[hoshi]

It's probably something best handled by sending a PM to the DM team and pitching your idea as it is a gray area.* My personal take is there is precedent for it in the Faerun universe but it is very uncommon. I wouldn't personally play such a character but I wouldn't go yelling for the DM team over it.

There is some level of difference between let's say, razing a forest and animating the leftovers and summoning something from the divine realm of your character's god. I'd personally have an easier time with a druid using actual mummies than a totem druid using mummy dust to have 3 undead bears, which seems to be fully in blighter territory.

You're still going to get tells about it even if the DM team okays it. There was a post on 5% characters and the trouble of dealing with other players; probably a good read because you'd probably encounter much of the same.

As far as evil druids working with things like blackguards etc, there are already NPC druids in game working hand in hand with blackguards like those that serve Ghaunadaur etc. Evil beings work together out of necessity even if they would be happy to murder the other if it would benefit them. Even those of the same race/ideology do not have to agree or be friends. Drow for example are happy to manipulate and murder each other for any advantage.

*Edit - This is something I've always tried to do with any characters I think might even be slightly in the gray area, either catching a DM online or sending a forum PM. The vast majority of time they're very helpful and have even pitched ideas to aid my concept.

[frightnight]

one player once described Arelith as a Utopia for boring people

.....

take that as you will...but how many evil/blight druids have you come across in your entirety of playing arelith i ask

[One Two Three Five]

Several. Anyway, this is a moot argument because druids absolutely cannot summon undead in the forgotten realms. Shifter is a moot argument because it's based on a class that didn't even require just druid from 3rd edition.

Pretty much just a hypothetical spitballing session, but the real answer is don't do it and always has been.

Edit: since the info I dropped ended up getting used in a way that wasn't funny, I'm going to wash away my sins here-style. From the 'Druid' entry of the Player's Handbook-

edit: oh my GOD how do I resize an image with the forum code wait found it wow that looks bad god

A slightly more interesting fact than the Osiris thing? The word 'Balance' isn't mentioned one time in this entry. Not once. Where did it come from?

[frightnight]

I'm not quite that versed in druidic lore but if the DnD gamebooks and FR lore doesn't provide a loophole then i suppose it really is a moot point

[One Two Three Five]

The exception is the Blighter class, which is allowed here only under a 5% roll.

[hoshi]

A slightly more interesting fact than the Osiris thing? The word 'Balance' isn't mentioned one time in this entry. Not once. Where did it come from?

Druid entry in 5E refers to it:

Preserve the Balance

For druids, nature exists in a precarious balance. The four elements that make up a world—air, earth, fire, and water—must remain in equilibrium. If one element were to gain power over the others, the world could be destroyed, drawn into one of the elemental planes and broken apart into its component elements. Thus, druids oppose cults of Elemental Evil and others who promote one element to the exclusion of others.

Druids are also concerned with the delicate ecological balance that sustains plant and animal life, and the need for civilized folk to live in harmony with nature, not in opposition to it.

After that is similar to what you quoted. I imagine that quite a few Faerun wiki resources have all the editions mixed in together.

Which is kind of funny, as by what is above worshiping a an elemental deity (there are quite a few Nature options) wouldn't be cool.

[One Two Three Five]

Well, I imagine worshiping Kossuth and deciding to reach heaven by fire wouldn't be cool, but worshiping Kossuth and being a little more normal with it should. I need to track down a non-5E balance reference though, I know I've been seeing the phrase for most of a decade.

[hoshi]

I've always struggled a bit with the concept of druids worshiping a deity, gaining divine powers from a deity, but not advancing that deity's agenda. Falls under the "things I'm not willing to play but am not going to get up in arms about" and why I'm happy Toril is a choice.

4E PHB II also has an entry under druid talking about balance and was published in 2009 or so. Masters of the Wild (3E super resource for natural classes like druid that also introduced things like Shifter, Totem, and Blighter) did not use the word balance that I could see.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah. I feel like it must've been a 4E thing or maybe relegated to some weird corner of 3/3.5 that somehow caught on huge in the NWN community specifically. Maybe a random druid-compatible deity entry or something.

[hoshi]

Here we go:

Rules Cyclopedia (original D&D).

Keep in mind that in this edition clerics were trained to become druids and the only alignments that were available were Law-Neutral-Chaos so the reference is more on the alignment side of things.

A druid is pure Neutral, never Lawful or Cha-otic. The druid devotes his life to the balance of
all things and to the study of nature.

Later on they took that out when they added the second axis for alignment and you could have things like Neutral Good druids.

Also in oD&D druids didn't like undead because:

Druids, unlike clerics, have no power to turn undead and so have reason to fear undead mon-sters. They may contact town churches if undead monsters threaten their realms

However they had access to spells like Animate Dead and didn't have anything in their description prohibiting them casting them while other cleric spells were specifically removed from their lists like Protection from Good/Evil.