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How important is improved KD?

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:23 pm
by Lost in the dark
I have a full BAB melee build and two feats to choose pre-epic. How much will I be gimped if I ignore IKD + one other (from whirlwind attack, great cleave, toughness, called shot etc) and go left field like unarmed strike and deflect arrows?

Thoughts very welcome.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:39 pm
by greatfanfare
If you like to have frost and fire giant shamans on their back, very important.

For me at least, on a meleer, IKD before called shot.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:44 pm
by Lost in the dark
Makes sense to me. Thanks.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 pm
by CookieMonster
Dragons too! No better way to keep a Dragon at bay than an IKD spam!

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:03 pm
by Sab1
Being able to KD a dragon seems rather odd to me.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:03 pm
by susitsu
I don't even think it's supposed to be possible in the description of IKD, but it happens anyway.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:59 am
by High Primate
Sab1 wrote:Being able to KD a dragon seems rather odd to me.
They're called kneecaps.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:03 am
by gilescorey
Improved KD is a great feat for high AB meleers, like WMs, brycers or battle-clerics, less so for melee characters with AB that tends toward the lower 40s like spellswords.

Simply because the +4 will put you into the "danger zone" so to speak for the target's discipline score on a high AB character; whereas it won't really put you anywhere you weren't before as far as percentages go for those guys with less AB.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:08 am
by Lorkas
susitsu wrote:I don't even think it's supposed to be possible in the description of IKD, but it happens anyway.
It says you count as one size category larger, which allows you to KD things that are one size category larger than you could KD without it. A halfling, for example, can target anything with IKD that a human could target with KD.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:56 pm
by CookieMonster
Because if my character can carry over 2000lbs, why can't he knock a Dragon's kneecaps to another server?

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:05 am
by Iceborn
Because KD is the equivalent of a bull rush, and that dragon can carry 20000lbs, and should knock you all the way back to Windows 95

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:38 am
by Invader_Nym
IKD is one of the most important damage-mitigating feats out there. It's super-dee-duper important.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:51 am
by Lorkas
Let's don't tug at this realism thread too hard, guys.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:11 pm
by falafel
I was considering the importance of IKD for a bard/blackguard/fighter build of mine, trying to determine if Epic Weapon Specialization is worth taking over IKD.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:37 pm
by If Valor Were Inches
I've had characters without IKD and Expertise. You can be fine without it! Might even be nice to op for consistent hitting over risk.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:19 pm
by gilescorey
falafel wrote:I was considering the importance of IKD for a bard/blackguard/fighter build of mine, trying to determine if Epic Weapon Specialization is worth taking over IKD.
Yes. Epic Weapon Specialisation is a feat you absolutely should take as a melee character. Do not drop that for IKD.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:12 am
by SwampFoot
gilescorey wrote:
falafel wrote:I was considering the importance of IKD for a bard/blackguard/fighter build of mine, trying to determine if Epic Weapon Specialization is worth taking over IKD.
Yes. Epic Weapon Specialisation is a feat you absolutely should take as a melee character. Do not drop that for IKD.

If you already do 30+ per hit that +4 isn't too noticeable. But if you are a dexer it can be life or death. IKD for STR, Epic Weapon Spec for DEX.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:53 pm
by gilescorey
SwampFoot wrote:If you already do 30+ per hit that +4 isn't too noticeable. But if you are a dexer it can be life or death. IKD for STR, Epic Weapon Spec for DEX.
4 damage is absolutely noticeable, what are you talking about?

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:04 am
by dallion43
falafel wrote:I was considering the importance of IKD for a bard/blackguard/fighter build of mine, trying to determine if Epic Weapon Specialization is worth taking over IKD.
Bard is about the only build when IDK vs EWS is even debatable. I assume you have 22-23 bard lvl?
If you are str based go with IKD.
If dex, EWS.
Imho.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:07 am
by Lorkas
gilescorey wrote:
SwampFoot wrote:If you already do 30+ per hit that +4 isn't too noticeable. But if you are a dexer it can be life or death. IKD for STR, Epic Weapon Spec for DEX.
4 damage is absolutely noticeable, what are you talking about?
It definitely is noticeable, even at 30+ damage per hit. Even at 40 damage, EWS is a 10% increase in damage--about the same as the 10.5-12.5% damage increase you get when you hit your 7th WM level on a scimitar WM (12.5% increase if you don't have a keen scimitar, 10.5% increase if you do).

It's obviously less noticeable on a 40-damage character than it is on a 20-damage character though, in terms of percent increase in damage. It is definitely true that the lower your damage is, the more important it is to have EWS.

Re: How important is improved KD?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:29 am
by falafel
Thank you for th answers. The build would be 20bard/6fighter/4BG and having Strength as their main attribute.