Dragon Shape Relevel

[Wytchee]

No one took monk let alone totem to be good in humanoid form. Even if one did stack everything you say...no one is impressed with a high 30s AC squishy druid.

We built this way to be superior shapers.

You built your druid to accentuate one specific feature of a very versatile class, a feature that was always maligned and slated for a rework. If you're concerned about being squishy in humanoid form, then join my crusade to #MakeDruidsCastersAgain. Because I am, too.

Monk investment USED to be the way to do this. Just like you would be a fool now not to build a shifter with at least 3 levels of monk and wisdom dump, because you are a shadow of what you could be without it.

NOW, pure druids are superior shapers and the classes operate mechanically very different at the high end.

Druids are now superior shapers without monk levels. Isn't that how it's supposed to be? Isn't that something we should be celebrating? A dragonshape nerf was inevitable. Everyone knew it. It's been a topic of forum discussion more often than time stop and discipline dumps.

Dragon Shape has cost my characters ALL their epic feats. 30 base wisdom is now 25...easily achievable by most PCs with a wisdom gift without any additional feats. For this reason alone anyone with old DS should get a rebuild. They are substantially disadvantaged by this change.

I'm not entirely opposed to druids getting a one-off rebuild option. But you could always just delevel to 20 and spend those three epic feats on something else. You built for dragon shape, which means you have the wisdom to be a competent caster, but again #MakeDruidsCastersAgain.

I wont rehash the improved critical nor monk points...but it suffices to say that when the main thing you built your character to do suddenly ceases to work because of a balance change...well, if that isn't rebuild territory, I don't know what is.

I'm not saying you definitely shouldn't get a rebuild. But you really shouldn't be this upset, either, considering every monk-druid dragonshape cheesemonger knew (or should have known) that this change was inevitable. Monk/druid dragonshapers have always been maligned, and as I said, it has been common knowledge that they would, some day, be balanced.

[Scurvy Cur]

No one took monk let alone totem to be good in humanoid form. Even if one did stack everything you say...no one is impressed with a high 30s AC squishy druid.

Correct. Nobody who took monk on a druid did it to be good in human form. They did it as an intentional embrace of the server's most reviled and detested build, wringing every possible scrap of advantage out of a feat that, by itself, was badly tuned for a multiplayer server of Arelith's nature. In doing so, they contributed to a broad scale inability to rework the rest of the druid class to a more playable position.

I think, personally, that druids are in a better place right now than they ever have been, and there's room to flesh them out further now that monk druids have been relegated to their natural dumpster habitat.

[Wytchee]

Stuff.

I sometimes wish forums had a 'like' feature.

[TimeAdept]

Suggestion: Spell Foci Transmutation feats give druids access to Cat's, Endurance at spell foci and greater spell foci, as infini-ability spells.

Transmutation seems to be the big 'niche' for druids so embracing that can't hurt.

Allowing Druids to perhaps gain some sort of interesting buff to spells based on their tileset or exterior/interior/etc could be neat too - Geomancer from FFT style.

[RedGiant]

Wytchee, Scurcy, you're great...you really are, and I actually don't mind the changes to druid. But especially to Wytchee's point, the dragon shape nerf that "everyone" knew about was "coming for ages" is actually quite a recent development.

I am in the category of someone who plays often, but not long. Work makes it so that I get 1-2 hours a night, with occasional long droughts. Even though I have been here along time (though not at long as some...circa 2008ish), it still takes me around 400 ish hours to slog a character to 30 with dedicated grinding. My first and most beloved druid was slogged to 30 over a period of literal years, then reslogged over another two years back to 30 to embrace the CP changes with herbalism.

I can embrace the design and balance decisions, I just passionately plead for some mercy for us casual players. On both my druids with dragon shape, I would have to go back to mid-teens at least to fix them. This is another perhaps literal year of my time on each.

[Garveus]

I absolutely believe they should be given a relevel. I feel like not giving them one would be a great injustice. Of course, the relevel should fall under the conditions of the new relevel policy.
The loss of Monk UBAB and AC, 5% crit chance, +6 Enhancement claws, 40/+6 DR, True Seeing, and maybe even something else I don't know about, cause for example, the removal of +6 claws and TS wasn't even mentioned in the update thread. Is ANYONE trying to tell me that such changes aren't drastic?
Not to mention, almost assuredly, they'll have 4 wasted feats compared to any new DSer (3 of them Epic), they'll also have 1 APR less. Is that not drastic to you either?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad DS finally got rebalanced, BUT further nerfing existing DSers (because that's what it is) is definitely a step in the wrong direction. It's also horrendous seeing the amount of hate DSers were exposed to in the last few days all over the forums. Dragon Shape as a feat wasn't disabled, it wasn't gated behind RPR/Mayor approval, the same applied to being a Druid + Monk and having DS; in other words, taking the feat and playing a DSer was a completely legitimate option for a hell of a long time, but it's like it's all only their fault.
So... could we, please, reclaim objectivity and quit stereotyping everyone and anyone who's ever made the decision to min/max a build?
If being empathic, not wanting someone to waste tens of hours just so that they don't have 1/3 of all their feats rendered useless (among other things I listed) due to mechanical changes, is considered unfair, then I don't know what's fair anymore.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

So... could we, please, reclaim objectivity and quit stereotyping everyone and anyone who's ever made the decision to min/max a build?
If being empathic, not wanting someone to waste tens of hours just so that they don't have 1/3 of all their feats rendered useless (among other things I listed) due to mechanical changes, is considered unfair, then I don't know what's fair anymore.

You're my new hero for this, and I don't even have a druid character. Or a monk.

But I think you will be surprised by how many people here have a knee-jerk Stormwind Fallacy response to character optimization, unfortunately. (Which is ironic if you look at the depth of the builds forum, now that I think about it. )

[yellowcateyes]

It's both overly simplistic and inaccurate to assign the lack of empathy towards dragonshapers to a supposed aversion to minmaxing. If you were to review the reaction posts in recent threads on the matter, you'll find that many of the memes were posted by players who see absolutely nothing wrong with wringing the most power possible out of the builds they play.

I don't speak for the larger community, but I'm fairly certain many of the hostile reactions stem from more deeply-rooted reasons. Some of those reasons may based on in-game interactions, based on common and repeated behaviors that, fairly or no, have painted an entire class combination in a bad light.

Others might be motivated by the simple acknowledgement that a broken mechanic is unhealthy in an environment where conflict is often mediate by a game engine - and that choosing to embrace that mechanic while being aware of its broken-ness is often a sign of poor sportsmanship.

Whatever the case, it would likely be more productive to offer some compelling guidelines the developers can use in deciding whether a class change requires a rebuild. Accusing swathes of players of knee-jerking to some well-known fallacy is both patronizing and, quite likely, incorrect.

[hoshi]

RedGiant:
While you can get decent AC from a druid caster form (low to mid 50s just counting minute per level buffs or longer) as a monk/druid and enough HP to not die from something looking at you funny, getting EDR, or picking a different class combination, it would probably take dropping totem form entirely and changing your base stats to be really useful.

I don't think a simply relevel would leave you mechanically satisfied, it would probably take a full remake from scratch. I doubt that even if you could argue for a relevel that a full remake that would be that big a shift would be allowed.

Personally if I were you I'd play with the new form, see what it can and can't do, and start thinking about an ideal build. Once it has seemed like the dust has settled epic sacrifice and roll up a new druid character with the -ECL reward. It's not a good option, but I think it will end up being the least frustrating/bad option over time. I realize it is probably the thing you least want to hear right now, sorry about that.

[Wytchee]

Druid 25/Ranger 5 with Arcane Defense: Abjuration would be strong, if 4 ranger levels are taken before 20. This is if you're still keen on Dragon Shape.

You can forgo the Arcane Defense but you'd be fairly easy to dispel, and being that you only have 3 transformations a day, that might not be ideal.

Dragonshape at present can reach 78 AC in expertise mode while maintaining 45 AB. It's anything but weak.

[One Two Three Five]

We could get a build thread rolling if Cortex would post the dragon's weapon stats too.

[Cortex]

I already did. They're:

Red Dragon: 5 AB, d10
Green/Bronze: 4 AB, 1d8
Both magic staves with extra damage type: slashing, so add 1d6.

[One Two Three Five]

Heckselent! Thanks.

[RedGiant]

Could we ah....get a relevel...to take advantage of the build thread?

*asks slyly*

[BegoneThoth]

Real quick, does this free epic feat ONLY work if you have 25 wisdom? Or can you just ONLY pick dragon shape with it if you have 25 wisdom?

[Lorkas]

The latter is how it has been communicated.

[BegoneThoth]

Yeah this is why I'm confused;

So instead, there will be an ingame option soon-ish for all Druids to take a free epic feat, one of them being Dragonshape (the others Hellball, Greater Ruin, Dragonknight). So existing Dragonshapers can take a free epic feat there, and new builds can grab their Dragonshape feat there for free (WIS 25 required).

Goal seems to be give druids an extra feat but also make dshape 25 wis, ergo I think the plan is everyone gets an extra feat in epics, but can select dragon shape if they have 25 wis.

[Lorkas]

I'm pretty sure every druid gets the bonus feat. My big question is at what druid level the option will be available.

[RedGiant]

Is there a current status on this topic?

1) As per the original OP: Dragonshaper Relevel?
(I know the staff was initially not keen on this, but good God the waste of feats on my characters.)

2) General state of Dragon Shape feat?
(Irongron seemed not to be happy with the move of actually making MORE dragonshapers? And I know of no player that actually had the feat who was super enthused with the debuff. Also, how does the feat NOW work for acquisition???)

3) The status and details of the proposed Druid epic bonus feat in the works?

My main character is sorta shelved and broken currently, and I would relevel since I did it once already, but even that relevel I HUGELY now regret because the systems weren't apparently settled. (I relevelled for HERBALISM and the cool things one might do with plants and subsequent RP, which is now restricted to 10 inches of the server and half the seeds don't work in the UD. *cries*.)

[BegoneThoth]

Can't you de-level down to your pre monk levels on your own?

[Miskol]

I would second a status update on the bonus feat. It's almost been a month since such was announced with no follow up, leaving all characters that want to take dragon shape with 25 wisdom be in an awkward state.

[RedGiant]

Can't you de-level down to your pre monk levels on your own?

Yes, but its not just that.

I would have to go at least as low as 10th lvl to fix my particular character...from 30. That I have to do this because of changes imposed from without seems to be the very definition of rebuild territory.

There are grave mechanical changes both to not only how the feat works but the entire class. I don't think you can even retake the feat under the new strictures yet?

Without staff input, we also don't know how solid/long-term the changes are. So, even if there is no mercy and I have to rebuild myself, do I got through the 10-12 months its going to take me only to run into the next feat change because we're in dragonshape 2.0 beta testing?

[See Herbalism...my great regret. I spent a year IRL to respec my druid to be more druidy in this regard...and now with fertile ground changes and seed restrictions... its almost completely worthless.]

[BegoneThoth]

10 months to a year to hit 30?

[Baron Saturday]

10 months to a year to hit 30?

People level at different rates. I've never hit level 30, and that's with characters I've played for 2 years.

[yellowcateyes]

The free feat option already exists in the gameworld. It can be found at a location of interest to druids, and reaching it should be trivial for a druid that meets the requirements. A fair few players have discovered it this past week.

Making use of it requires 25+ druid levels and a base WIS of 25+.