Dragon Shape Relevel

[RedGiant]

So, given the great news...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14958

are dragon shape relevels in the works or even currently now being offered? I am afraid to log mine, because I would have to go so far back...and do math...and you only have two days once you log, right?

[Dunshine]

Dragonshapers don't get a relevel, mainly because the Dragonshape feat requirement can't be changed to 25 WIS. And we'd want relevelled Dragonshapers to still be Dragonshapers after the relevel. So the automated proces doesn't help here, since you would still need all the WIS feats to get it back.

So instead, there will be an ingame option soon-ish for all Druids to take a free epic feat, one of them being Dragonshape (the others Hellball, Greater Ruin, Dragonknight). So existing Dragonshapers can take a free epic feat there, and new builds can grab their Dragonshape feat there for free (WIS 25 required).

Ofcourse you still have the option to delevel a couple of levels if you want to exchange some of the WIS feats and grab Dragonshape ingame.

[BegoneThoth]

That's.... really neat actually. A good way to handle current druid issues.

[TimeAdept]

Whoa, Dragonshape is just a free feat if you have 25 wis on a druid now?

[BegoneThoth]

Or a selection of epic spells.

[Wytchee]

So instead, there will be an ingame option soon-ish for all Druids to take a free epic feat, one of them being Dragonshape (the others Hellball, Greater Ruin, Dragonknight). So existing Dragonshapers can take a free epic feat there, and new builds can grab their Dragonshape feat there for free (WIS 25 required).

I actually love you right now.

[Scurvy Cur]

The tl;dr here is that we've been looking for a way to give druids +1 epic feat for some time now, because of all the casting classes, they're the only one that routinely gets shortchanged one epic feat.

Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcs all get 1 bonus epic feat per 3 levels, on 23, 26, and 29.

Druids get 1 per 4, on 24 and 28.

This is the answer.

[Cortex]

Also serves a small buff for all druids.

[Scurvy Cur]

I was more thorough and faster, Cortex.

[Smelyansky]

Dragonshapers don't get a relevel, mainly because the Dragonshape feat requirement can't be changed to 25 WIS. And we'd want relevelled Dragonshapers to still be Dragonshapers after the relevel. So the automated proces doesn't help here, since you would still need all the WIS feats to get it back.

So instead, there will be an ingame option soon-ish for all Druids to take a free epic feat, one of them being Dragonshape (the others Hellball, Greater Ruin, Dragonknight). So existing Dragonshapers can take a free epic feat there, and new builds can grab their Dragonshape feat there for free (WIS 25 required).

Ofcourse you still have the option to delevel a couple of levels if you want to exchange some of the WIS feats and grab Dragonshape ingame.

Can we get the epic feats aside from Dragonshape if we do not have 25 wis?

[Cortex]

Next time, Scurvy.

[hoshi]

Could we please get a heads up on how this will work mechanically before release (not asking for it today).

For example, if one has all those feats listed that they'd want, and this is a dialog box that only shows up one time per character ever, then they might pick let's say dragon shape, then drop their level to remove it from the normal choice, then find that it stripped both and get into a state where they've missed out on the feat.

It might be fixable by DMs but a post a couple of days early would allow one to delevel a bit early and save some hassle for everyone involved.

Ideally the selection made would save and reask every time the druid levels (or drops a level and relevels) though that would give them more freedom than others for this one feat.

I'm thrilled about the change mind you, just tossing out a suggestion in hopes that it could hopefully aid execution.

[Miaou]

I love all of you

[RedGiant]

This is great!

But yet...I respectfully feel the need to press the staff's generosity. None of my characters who are dragon shapers do I want to NOT be dragon shapers, it is all well established and integral to their role-play. However, I do want to dump a bunch of stuff that frankly doesn't work anymore.

Only big changes, that thoroughly impact existing PCs in a negative way.

I don't know about anyone else, but I took GW III to get dragon shape, plus the feat itself. Yes, wanting to be the best Dragon I could be, I also took monk, which frankly doesn't work with the shape anymore...at all. Finally, I took improved crit: unarmed, pretty much for the express purpose of doubling my chances (from a whopping 5% to 10%) of doubling that claw damage.

None of this literally works anymore. So, I'm out three epic feats, one pre-epic feat, and have a poor class choice (that half the server loathes). This "thoroughly impacts my existing PC in a negative way." Please consider allowing DRONK DSers...and anyone else who wasted feats they would not have otherwise taken...to relevel their dragon shapers...on the condition they remain dragon shapers?

Could we not do this in stages, i.e. give a well-announced week or so to re-level, before the feat choice is given to all druids? All my old characters would easily hit 25 WIS without sacrificing three epic feats to get to 30 WIS. In fact, all would hit it naturally (well, with mandatory +2 wis gift practically all old DSers required). Spending 4 epic feats to pump my casting DCs is not something I would have done when the focus was a melee shape.

[gilescorey]

Does it, really? I mean, you're a wisdom-based druid. That's still good. You took all these feats to take advantage of a franky overpowered "win button," and you know it. Depsite that, the core of your character (wisdom based druid) is unchanged. Monk is still a good dip for druid, it's just not the best and the scaling it had with dragonshape (NOT the other forms) was removed.

Nothing about the dragonshape nerfs really necessitate a rebuild.

[xitonnn]

Druid/monk is definitely not worth playing a high level char anymore. Lvl 30 Druid/monk will have the same effect as a lower level other PG.
Yeah, people built their Druid/monk with the idea of being op with the dragonform because Arelith allowed them to do so, ruining all the time invested is kinda harsh tbh.
Try not to criticize someone just because he wants to build a stronger char than you want.

[gilescorey]

Yes it is. Monk AC and UBAB still apply to non-dragon forms. There's no "ruined time investment" because having a lot of AC outside of wild-shape or dragonshape isn't weak, especially considering a lot of the druid's spellbook reward being dangerously close like Nature's Balance.

It's just not the best 3 level dip anymore; certainly it's still playable. That doesn't really necessitate a total rebuild, imo. Especially considering only 1 druid alignment can even be a druid/monk.

[Wytchee]

Druid/monk is definitely not worth playing a high level char anymore. Lvl 30 Druid/monk will have the same effect as a lower level other PG.

+15 untyped AC in humanoid form; evasion; still mind; 10% movement speed increase; access to discipline, tumble, hide and move silently; better saves and cleave as a free feat aren't worth it?

Ummm... ok duderino.

[gilescorey]

wytchee being snarky now... what have these forums become

[xitonnn]

Druid/monk is definitely not worth playing a high level char anymore. Lvl 30 Druid/monk will have the same effect as a lower level other PG.

+15 untyped AC in humanoid form; evasion; still mind; 10% movement speed increase; access to discipline, tumble, hide and move silently; better saves and cleave as a free feat aren't worth it?

Ummm... ok duderino.

What will you do with that +15 ac? 30 AC human form is useless. I don't know about you, but which DS in his right mind took MS or Hide? and how could he mix it with animal empathy/disc/tumble/heal?
10% Movementspeed/cleave/evasion aren't worth the trade.

[One Two Three Five]

Having played several non-DS druids, it's so weird to hear you DSer players talking as if there's nothing else to the class save the win button. How did you even level? I know the pve is easy but jeeze.

[Wytchee]

Druid/monk is definitely not worth playing a high level char anymore. Lvl 30 Druid/monk will have the same effect as a lower level other PG.

+15 untyped AC in humanoid form; evasion; still mind; 10% movement speed increase; access to discipline, tumble, hide and move silently; better saves and cleave as a free feat aren't worth it?

Ummm... ok duderino.

What will you do with that +15 ac? 30 AC human form is useless. I don't know about you, but which DS in his right mind took MS or Hide? and how could he mix it with animal empathy/disc/tumble/heal?
10% Movementspeed/cleave/evasion aren't worth the trade.

30 AC? Assuming you don't take totem form, you should have better AC than that on a monk-druid in humanoid form.

Base 10 + 15 wis mod + 5 barkskin + 3 from shirt (though you will likely have wis/con gear in this slot, admittedly) + 6 from tumble + 1 from dodge boots = 40.

Add in a Cat's Grace wand and a Dex Skleen, and bam, 43 AC
Stick just +1 Dex on your gear, bam, 44 AC

Armor Skin adds +2 (now that we're getting a free epic feat it should be easier to incorporate this).

A haste potion adds 4, though let's omit that for its impracticality.

46 AC with the appropriate gear and hours-level buffs. Add in shield and haste potions and that's 54 AC for mister Monk-y Druid.

EDIT: Cortex's correction

[Cortex]

Doesn't armor of the wilds negate monk AC?

[Wytchee]

Doesn't armor of the wilds negate monk AC?

Yes, derpy me. Subtract 2 from that and supplement +3 on shirt.

[RedGiant]

No one took monk let alone totem to be good in humanoid form. Even if one did stack everything you say...no one is impressed with a high 30s AC squishy druid.

We built this way to be superior shapers.

Monk investment USED to be the way to do this. Just like you would be a fool now not to build a shifter with at least 3 levels of monk and wisdom dump, because you are a shadow of what you could be without it.

NOW, pure druids are superior shapers and the classes operate mechanically very different at the high end.

This is really very simple.

Dragon Shape has cost my characters ALL their epic feats. 30 base wisdom is now 25...easily achievable by most PCs with a wisdom gift without any additional feats. For this reason alone anyone with old DS should get a rebuild. They are substantially disadvantaged by this change.

I wont rehash the improved critical nor monk points...but it suffices to say that when the main thing you built your character to do suddenly ceases to work because of a balance change...well, if that isn't rebuild territory, I don't know what is.

I've also benefited from the fey lock rebuild...which actually affected my character's capability far less than this, so...