Dragon Shape Relevel

[Improv]

10 months to a year to hit 30?

It takes longer than that for casual players. Not everyone can make this their full time job..

[nobs3]

Dragonshape at present can reach 78 AC in expertise mode while maintaining 45 AB. It's anything but weak.

Sometimes I wonder if I am still the worst builder on Arelith

My pure mele character (lvl 30) can reach about 47 AB (full ability buffs) and 33 AC (ok he is a const build).

Should not pure fighters, WM, barbarians etc. be at least compareable powerful as druids in animal form in direct battle? We are all heros!

Maybe I just wanted to post this to show the nerfed dragon shapers it is not all too bad.

10 months to a year to hit 30?

It takes longer than that for casual players. Not everyone can make this their full time job..

right

[Miaou]

Making use of it requires 25+ druid levels and a base WIS of 25+.

While I understand the need for a high requirement, the level 25 druid requirement seems a bit restrictive to anyone not wanting to go with a simple 3-4 dip class with a druid or pure druid. You take 6+ levels in another class, suddenly you get barred from an the third epic feat. If possible, is there a specific reason why 25 levels was the chosen requirement?

[Improv]

I'm more wondering about 25+ wisdom? Is there some specific reason for that like punishing con-based druids or something?

[Baron Saturday]

I'm just guessing here, but I'd say that the 25 level requirement is to prevent taking more than one other class, similar to how other classes receive perks at levels 25 and 28. It also stops a 24/6 druid/monk, which gets a ton of free feats already, including IKD, which I imagine is terrifying in combo with dragon shape.

The 25 wisdom requirement is probably because the extra feat is part of the dragon shape change, and dragon shape now requires 25 wisdom.

[Miskol]

The 25 wisdom requirement is because they couldnt introduce dragonshape without overrides(?). So you wouldn't be able to pick it from the list unless you had it downloaded.

[One Two Three Five]

You take 6+ levels in another class, suddenly you get barred from an the third epic feat.

Y- yes? That's how NWN works. Clerics get epic bonus feats at 23, 26, and 29.
You take more than 4 of anything else and you suddenly get barred from a third epic feat.

Sorcerer? 23, 26, 29. You take 6+ levels in another class, and suddenly-

I could do this all day. In fact, only requiring 25 druid puts them ahead multiclass-wise, of everyone else save 21+ fighters. Hell, epic barbs still only get 2 epic feats. How the hell are we at a point where outright, zero cost buffs are too much?

Should epic dodge not have a high dex requirement anymore, either? What is this
The idea is you pick up dragonshape with the free feat or, you can, as far as I know, not do that- But nothing on the druid epic feat list benefits non-wis druids anyway.

[Improv]

I guess I get it- but to be clear, you don't HAVE to take dragonshape to get the extra feat? I was thinking the feat was a bonus for druids since other casters get more epic feats in general and not necessarily dragonshape related.

[Miskol]

I guess I get it- but to be clear, you don't HAVE to take dragonshape to get the extra feat? I was thinking the feat was a bonus for druids since other casters get more epic feats in general and not necessarily dragonshape related.

From what I could tell, when I arrived at the place, you have the option to take one of several feats - one of them being dragon shape. So no, you don't have to have dragon shape before getting the extra feat.

[Miaou]

Y- yes? That's how NWN works. Clerics get epic bonus feats at 23, 26, and 29.
You take more than 4 of anything else and you suddenly get barred from a third epic feat.

Sorcerer? 23, 26, 29. You take 6+ levels in another class, and suddenly-

I could do this all day.

I actually didn't know how that works. I'm not a mechanics savvy person, so that makes sense! Thanks for the answer.

[yellowcateyes]

Yes, as mentioned it's in keeping with the bonus epic feat progression of other casting classes.

I guess I get it- but to be clear, you don't HAVE to take dragonshape to get the extra feat? I was thinking the feat was a bonus for druids since other casters get more epic feats in general and not necessarily dragonshape related.

You don't need to have dragonshape to avail of the in-game bonus feat option.

[Improv]

So to return to my original question, does acquiring the bonus feat actually require 25 wisdom? Because this means a druid has to start with 18 wis or use other epic feats to get it.

If it's not specifically a bonus for existing dragonshapers maybe just 25 druid levels could be a requirement?

[yellowcateyes]

requires 25+ druid levels and a base WIS of 25+.

[Improv]

I am wondering WHY the max wisdom is a requirement, and yes, this is because I have a druid who started with less than 18 wis who evidently won't get to use the feat.

Which is fine, if there is reasoning behind that- I didn't make the druid expecting a free feat and never planned to go dragonshape so the change didn't affect them. But if 25 Wis is arbitrary maybe that specific requirement could be reconsidered for the non-dragonshapers out there.

[yellowcateyes]

That's the drawback for going for EDR.

[Improv]

Not every druid who didn't max wisdom is going monk drip or EDR? I have a vanilla druid who started with 17 because I didn't see maxing spell DCs as necessary.

[One Two Three Five]

17+5 boosts to level 20 is 23. You get 2 increases (before feats) in epic.
25. You can still grab it, just later. Faster if you take a great wis.

[Kirito]

17 + 5 is 22

The wis 25 is because of Dragon shape

[Improv]

*starts pulling out her hair while laughing maniacally in frustration*

[One Two Three Five]

Hey, woops, you're right! I've been awake too long. Oh well.

[yellowcateyes]

To answer the question more directly, the 25+ WIS requirement compensates for the fact that these feats are free. That is to say, the normal prerequisites (such as Spellcraft and the vanilla Dragonshape prerequisites) are ignored.

The 25 CL requirement exists so that the druid's additional feat is in keeping with other epic casters' bonus feat scaling.

And despite my earlier flippant comment about EDR, it is possible to get both EDR and the free feat with the right subrace and a bit of planning (and the willingness to have no other ability scores of note). 25 base WIS is not a difficult hurdle to overcome.

In any case, the WIS requirement for all of the bonus feat selections is not an arbitrary one, and will likely remain.

[Misteyes]

To answer the question more directly, the 25+ WIS requirement compensates for the fact that these feats are free. That is to say, the normal prerequisites (such as Spellcraft and the vanilla Dragonshape prerequisites) are ignored.

The 25 CL requirement exists so that the druid's additional feat is in keeping with other epic casters' bonus feat scaling.

And despite my earlier flippant comment about EDR, it is possible to get both EDR and the free feat with the right subrace and a bit of planning (and the willingness to have no other ability scores of note). 25 base WIS is not a difficult hurdle to overcome.

In any case, the WIS requirement for all of the bonus feat selections is not an arbitrary one, and will likely remain.

Am I understanding it correctly that the only way to take Dragon Shape is with the new bonus feat? So the requirement for Dragon Shape is 25+ WIS and 25+ druid levels?

[Kirito]

I think you probably can get it with 30 wis still

[Ork]

But if 25 Wis is arbitrary maybe that specific requirement could be reconsidered for the non-dragonshapers out there.

Look at any other epic class feat. Overwhelming Crit? 23 STR requirement. Thundering Rage? 25 STR requirement. EDR? 21 CON requirement.

That's how this game works. You want an epic feat, you have to have epic stats. Prior, it was 30 WIS for Dragon Shape. If you can't achieve Dragon Shape on your current character but you want it, roll and start over.

[Kirito]

But if 25 Wis is arbitrary maybe that specific requirement could be reconsidered for the non-dragonshapers out there.

Look at any other epic class feat. Overwhelming Crit? 23 STR requirement. Thundering Rage? 25 STR requirement. EDR? 21 CON requirement.

That's how this game works. You want an epic feat, you have to have epic stats. Prior, it was 30 WIS for Dragon Shape. If you can't achieve Dragon Shape on your current character but you want it, roll and start over.

I think the actual question might be... if you want something other than dragon shape (ie free feat that didn't require WIS 25/30 previously) then it feels limiting.