Does edr stack with elemental shape?

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Smelyansky
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Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Smelyansky » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:03 pm

Hey all. I'm building a druid now with an end game goal of getting edr 3. I just wanted to confirm now for sure, does the edr3 stack with the dr (5/-) that the monolithic forms come with? Thanks guys.

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Wytchee
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:49 pm

99% sure it does. EDR stacks with Dwarven Defender and Barbarian damage reduction.

An earth elemental would have 19/- damage reduction on top of 35% physical damage immunity (if geared right). The damage immunity is applied first, as far as I know, so a hit for 30 physical damage would become 20, then shave 19/- off that. Pretty strong.
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Improv
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Improv » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:11 pm

Beware though, that is the kind of pretty strong thing where you look in the updates some day and it no longer works. Not that you shouldn't do it but.. don't be surprised.

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Wytchee
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:38 pm

"Let's nerf pure druids" - Arelith community c. 2018

Hahahaha.
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Lorkas
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Lorkas » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:47 am

It's not that simple, Wytchee. Druids are pretty weak, but if built right could then get Dragon Shape and make PvM laughably easy.

Druids need their power ceiling lowered and their power floor raised. If EDR3+monolithic earth makes the PvM content laughably easy, it would likely also be nerfed.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:11 am

I really fail to see how 9 more DR could possibly be the tipping point for that build into something that needed to be nerfed.

Much less the actual sacrifice you make on a druid to not use totem form (lose a flat +4 to str/con with bear that works in forms) and then also pump con to 21, something you literally never use because the build demands you be in a form other then normal.

And lets not forget to actually do any of this you have to get rid of tumble AC and umd. You lose disc but you are knockdown immune, so it's not that bad. You also lose monk multiclassing and thus lose wisdom to ac as well.

I really just don't see how adding 9 dr to a level 28 pure druid earth elemental pushes it into nerf-territory.
\

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:22 am

Yeah, no. There's absolutely no way that we stack 50/+6 DR and 80 AC, plus room for a disc and tumble dump up against 19/- DR and 30% DI with lower AC and no disc/tumble and conclude that the problematic feature here is the monolith shape.


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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:28 am

Dragon shape is already on the nerf block.
\

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Wytchee
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:14 am

Dragon shape is being reworked, not necessarily nerfed. Bringing a class feature down to "not broken" level doesn't constitute a nerf.
Lorkas wrote:Druids need their power ceiling lowered and their power floor raised. If EDR3+monolithic earth makes the PvM content laughably easy, it would likely also be nerfed.
I definitely agree with this, here.

While I'm really excited about a pure druid in earth elemental having effectively 26/- damage reduction (after considering immunities), that combined with the druid's multiple sources of regeneration does seem incredibly broken, not only in PvE. A druid versus a weapon master shifts into earth elemental form with 35% slashing immunity, 19/- DR, 16 regen a round and 700 health, not to mention immunity to critical hits and an attack bonus comparable to the weapon master's (49 in wilderness areas)... there isn't much counterplay for the weapon master at all.

I think the only thing keeping that PvE ceiling so high is dragon shape, though. Druids need more in the way of being competitive as casters, unless it's the devs' idea to make druids a class focused in melee and summons. Perhaps give non-totem druids a boon, like a free feat in the form of Spell Focus: Transmutation, or something. Druids need more caster-focused boons and fixes to their deplorable and largely useless spell list, and less emphasis on polymorphing.
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Improv » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:13 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing for a rework.. But the history of online gaming tells us if there is a very powerful loophole or quirk like that (which in this case is probably not something the developer thought about people doing when they designed the monolithic forms) and a number of people take advantage, a nerf can be very likely. It's very tempting to build for it (and I'm not saying you shouldn't) but keep in mind you may find out someone decided it was too powerful and it no longer works some day.

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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by hoshi » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:13 am

This was actually brought up before:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13417&hilit=monolith+edr

Also I have doubts it stacks. The conclusion Sockss reached was in response to the post above talking about stacking with resistance which I'm pretty sure monolithic DR is not. Fire/earth form can innately pierce DR on mages with stoneskin up and zombie form (gives resistance to all 3 types) to the best of my knowledge does not. Epic DR only stacks with very specific instances of damage reduction of which this probably isn't one of them.

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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Nitro » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:20 am

Wytchee wrote:Dragon shape is being reworked, not necessarily nerfed. Bringing a class feature down to "not broken" level doesn't constitute a nerf.
Yes, yes that is a nerf.
In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the power of a weapon or skill in order to maintain game balance. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.
Just because something is broken and has to be nerfed doesn't make the reduction of power /not/ a nerf.

Though, if/when said nerf happens, can some cookie be given to the form, maybe size-wise, because savvy folk can already kite a dragon-druid across doorways three times to use up their daily allotment of dragon.

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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:23 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wytchee wrote:Dragon shape is being reworked, not necessarily nerfed. Bringing a class feature down to "not broken" level doesn't constitute a nerf.
Yes, yes that is a nerf.
In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the power of a weapon or skill in order to maintain game balance. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.
Just because something is broken and has to be nerfed doesn't make the reduction of power /not/ a nerf.

Though, if/when said nerf happens, can some cookie be given to the form, maybe size-wise, because savvy folk can already kite a dragon-druid across doorways three times to use up their daily allotment of dragon.
Pedant
noun
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.
:P

I'm having images of tiny, human-sized dragon models and I don't think I hate it.
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by yellowcateyes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:43 pm

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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:08 pm

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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Sockss » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 pm

EDR does stack with Elem shape and it's pretty good.

You can take Abjuration focuses, parry and ESF: Parry; like I would were I to build a pure druid, to be even cooler.

You can stop mage bursts fairly reliably by keeping shield potted up. You have reflex spells and summons to deal with mages and summons and ele forms to deal with everything else. With some finesse you come out okay in most matchups.

If you must take Totem shape, you can do so after you've grabbed EDR III.

Druids are pretty good outside of Dragon Shape now, one of the best classes PvE and not terrible PvP.

Personally, I would remove EDR on elemental shifting and improve druids spell selection to compensate.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Wytchee
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:17 pm

Sockss wrote:Personally, I would remove EDR on elemental shifting and improve druids spell selection to compensate.
This. Especially now that items with Freedom of Movement on them are being found in teen-level dungeons.

Every one of our disabling spells (with the exception of Sov) is nullified by this one spell.

Please change.

- have entangle apply its gripping effect immediately rather than having it delayed a round. By the time it applies any PC or monster is going to have charged out of it.
- change Stonehold so it's no longer mind-affecting. Possibly link it to poison so the druid would be immune to it? I don't know. Both a clarity potion and Freedom of Movement nullify it.
- make Quillfire scale with level, please.
- lower Spike Growth's duration. It's incredibly buggy right now.
- possibly have barkskin continue scaling with level, but only when applied on the druid. AC in humanoid form is difficult to come by, especially for totem druids.
- why the only zoo spell Druids have access to is Bull's Strength baffles me.
- buff Dominate Animal for druids who focus in enchanting.
- give Druids some way to banish. Maybe link it to Nature's Balance.
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Xerah
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Xerah » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:27 pm

Wytchee wrote:Especially now that items with Freedom of Movement on them are being found in teen-level dungeons.

Every one of our disabling spells (with the exception of Sov) is nullified by this one spell.

I'm pretty sure that freedom armor was removed from the loot matrix. It seems to just appear on the most inconvenient artifacts now.
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Wytchee
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Wytchee » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:33 pm

I haven't played in a few weeks, but a Vest of Escape was found on a recent Duergar Fortress run. I'd say a month and a half ago. So unless it has changed since then, no. They're still in the matrix.
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Xerah
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Re: Does edr stack with elemental shape?

Post by Xerah » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:50 pm

I see. I stand corrected then!
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