rp'ing a wildshape'd druid.

[Azensor]

this is more a question for anyone that plays druid/shifter.

I know that shifting into any form and waddling through town merrily chatting away in common would be.. interesting(not in a good way) but what I'm curious about is how do you rp being wildshape'd outdoors away from civilization.

Do you just avoid any and all interaction with others, or would you try and speak,poorly, in animal tongue?

[Lorkas]

No need to speak poorly in animal tongue I think. There's no reason you couldn't speak fluently in animal, but it's a bit weird for many players when druids speak common while shaped like an animal.

[Dreams]

My personal opinion is that if you're wildshaped as a druid, you should only ever speak in Animal language. Even then, having huge conversations is kind of ridiculous. Animals simply don't communicate like that. Base commands, affirmative, negative, small sentences to get a point across... that all makes sense to me. Usually if engaging like this, I'll type something that is said as speech in the Animal language, along with what the animal form is actually doing. e.g. Emoting the body-language, gestures, movements, as well as the sounds that an animal might make.

[Kirito]

Maikan was great at it,

He would speak partly in animal, and partly a mix of huffs, grunts, growls yips and other sounds.

Bears teeth, hackles rise, hops about excitedly etc etc.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

It is all in the emotes.

Animals, far more than humanoids, rely on a bunch of visual and behavioural cues when they communicate, since they are not having conversations in the same way you and I could. With a touch of druidic magic to help, it can be a neat thing for other players to see.

What I personally tried to do with Maikan was whenever he spoke in animal tongue, I would describe the sounds he was making according to the depth and complexity of the things he was expressing. Yaps for simple, short things, growls and snarls for more lenghty phrases, and whines and howls for more emotional stuff. (Also, wolves don't bark)
On top of that, I tried to rember all the stuff I had seen in documentaries and what I had seen my own dog do. The nose movements, the snarling, the huffing, the pawing, the head and ear tilts, the way the tail moves.

Add all of that together, and you end up with several tools for how your druid can communicate.

As for the other languages, common or any other class or racial ones, I early on decided to impose limits on myself. It was only when my pure druid reached lvl 21 that I allowed myself to use those while in wild shape. The reasoning being that through his deep connection with magic he was capable of projecting his voice, or thoughts, through not only his animal body, but the surrounding nature.

I used the wolves in princess Mononoke as inspiration. Check that movie out if you want to see some cool Nature and Balance themed stuff.

[Azensor]

It is all in the emotes.

Animals, far more than humanoids, rely on a bunch of visual and behavioural cues when they communicate, since they are not having conversations in the same way you and I could. With a touch of druidic magic to help, it can be a neat thing for other players to see.

What I personally tried to do with Maikan was whenever he spoke in animal tongue, I would describe the sounds he was making according to the depth and complexity of the things he was expressing. Yaps for simple, short things, growls and snarls for more lenghty phrases, and whines and howls for more emotional stuff. (Also, wolves don't bark)
On top of that, I tried to rember all the stuff I had seen in documentaries and what I had seen my own dog do. The nose movements, the snarling, the huffing, the pawing, the head and ear tilts, the way the tail moves.

Add all of that together, and you end up with several tools for how your druid can communicate.

As for the other languages, common or any other class or racial ones, I early on decided to impose limits on myself. It was only when my pure druid reached lvl 21 that I allowed myself to use those while in wild shape. The reasoning being that through his deep connection with magic he was capable of projecting his voice, or thoughts, through not only his animal body, but the surrounding nature.

I used the wolves in princess Mononoke as inspiration. Check that movie out if you want to see some cool Nature and Balance themed stuff.

hm i'll have to keep all of that in mind then, tbh i havn't really even tried shifting around anyone else because i know with how poorly i was rp'ing i'd botch it

[Tryn Dralar]

Yea its silly to me for..say a wolf to be holding full blown conversation in common. Some peps try to explain why they can but for me there really is no good enough teason that i agree with or like. Thats just me. I wont speak common or anything but animal to animals even if the one takin shape is talking common. Only common words i may use to an animal are like, no, yes, sit, good boy/girl. But mostly just switch to animal. Amyways, good luck with it.

[cornelius_4]

I think in most cases, the druid could communicate to some extent in languages if the druid wanted to, so for me it's more a matter of whether the druid wants to do so, although I also think a detailed expositionary speech is a little weird.

Parrots can mimic some speech, being only a parrot. If the parrot then had a human level intellgence and wisdom, it likely wouldn't be particularily difficult to learn to vocalise in general and with polymorphing you retain your mental abilites - you aren't just some animal, but a somewhat-hard-to-define mix of your mind and the shape you assume.

Maybe some animal vocal cords cannot do all ours can do though and it wouldn't be weird if it took more energy and effort to vocalise as an animal so perhaps sentences should be kept a bit simple.

[RedGiant]

While I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything said so far here, including animals should generally communicate by "emote" and/or exclusively utilize the "animal" tongue to preserve immersion. That being said, I point out that, canonically, not all "animals" are limited to "animal" level intelligence (i.e. usually around 3).

For example, the Malar Panther has an INT score of 10, i.e. the median for human intelligence. Granted, this animal is touched by Malar, but, as a rule, animals in DnD can far outstrip the intelligence of natural animals in the really real world. Therefore, I like to give some allowances for more sophisticated animal communication. I mean heck, we have an in game mechanic where animals can tell you all sorts of interesting details.

While on one hand I hate how many people make the leap that you are "no ordinary animal" with no other information than your presence on screen, on the other hand, if you speak with sophistication or do generally intelligent things, you have given your own game away by all rights. If I choose to do this on a PC, I like to use emotes such as <insert animal text here> *says with a sophistication beyond the ken of most normal animals*. This is just personal preference however.

I like the Princess Mononoke reference above. In that movie there were some almost archetypical animals that were quite intelligent and capable of speech. While I would never go as far as using "common" in game (because DnD is neither Princess Mononoke nor The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe), Arelith nevertheless contains a variety of very intelligent animals. I mean, heck, the Legendary Snowbeast is an Arelith animal that may very well embody the very spirit of the Isle, so we certainly have similar archetypical animals of great renown. (Though I admittedly have no idea how intelligent it is.)

All to say, I like the hard line above, but I would be a little more generous with the sophistication of animal speech given the existence (if not prevalence) of intelligent animals, in both DnD and Arelith.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I like talking animals. I think it's a fundamental fairy tale/mythical trope in storytelling. I see nothing wrong with talking druids if you do it well - I also think the animal you shapeshift into should have a direct impact on how you approach dialogue, and conversation, beyond emotes and sounds. i.e. does a raven ask nothing but questions? does a bear talk seldom, but profoundly? is a wolf an extrovert? is a badger aggressive in speech?

[hoshi]

You don't even have to emote and can handle it with movements in game sometimes.

Coming to a four way intersection as a critter and moving about in a circle using WASD keys conveys to the party you're unsure of the way to go.

Side stepping around the corner then right back and sneaking back to the party keys them in that there is probably something nasty around the bend.

Strafing side to side and then running around the speaker in a circle to show you're excited about what they just said.

Role play isn't limited to the chat window.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

There's a level of...I don't want to call it hypocrisy, because it is too strong a word, but perhaps a..disconnect between what is and isn't considered immersive and justifiable within the fantasy realm our characters exist in.

If I understand some of the opinions I have read above, it is totally fine, and no one bats an eyelid, if a druid is capable of:

- Turning into a giant red dragon, or a slaad, or any number of bestial shapes in the case of a non-totem.

- Be completly immune to poison.

- Be able to turn into the very raw elemental forms of the multi-verse.

- Call down flaming boulders from the sky.

- Summon forth clouds of insects that will eat creatures alive.

- Take control of twisting, near-sentient vines that can hold down and tear creatures apart.

- Effectively tap into and alter the very basics, almost ethereal laws of an ecosystem so that it is "Balanced."

- Achieve such high numbers in a mental stat such as Wisdom that they are likely walking in a permanent state of nirvana.


And yet, somehow, if they talk in Common while magically morphing their bodies into those of animals, that is somehow what breaks the glass?

That does not add up, in my personal opinion.


Sure, like anything else in this game, it can be poorly done. I have seen it and cringed because of it. But with a wee bit of imagination (which is sitll the driving force behind what happens here on Arelith), and some attention to detail, it can also add to the game world.

Final point: A druid shifted into an animal shape is not equal to the actual original animal. There's a whole lot more going on behind it.

[hoshi]

I think you're going to get people expecting it to work like in PnP, where druids could not talk in animal form. It is pretty explicit too in the 3.5 SRD:

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

Even the Natural Spell feat didn't give them the ability to speak. Should people expect the same here, dunno, but I can see why people feel that way.

I'm not sure if your post had any relation to mine, but I enjoy showing instead of telling/speaking, even with the elemental forms which have their own language. You can convey a lot without needing to converse. I haven't said anything against someone choosing a more standard way of conveying ideas, but it is not how I like to handle things on my druid.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

Nah, wasn't really aiming at anyone in specific, just the overall point.

I do understand what you are saying (I also did not know 3.5 stated that), and I also understand the argument against druids speaking anything other than animal tongue while in wild shape. I really do.

However, and for the reasons I listed on my previous post, it still makes little sense to me when comparing to the overall context of magic and the..crazy stuff characters can achieve with it.


All of that being said, on my own druid I did try and make the emotes themselves, the behaviour, do most of the talking, with then animal tongue added in for a bit more depth, and common trickled in after the epic levels with emotes depicting the voice not so much coming from the animal form itself, but it being a..presence around the druid, using nature (whisperes in the leaves, creaks int he tree branches) to communicate.

In any case, I did delete my druid because I wasn't happy with him so, I might not be the best to talk about all of this,

[Miaou]

Hi, I play a character that polymorphs often.

How I do it is consider the form I am taking. Is it reasonable that form can speak? Can it physically make the words form in it's mouth? For instance. A bear can grunt and growl, but it can't form a "normal" language. A dragon, on the other hand, has been proven to be able to speak multiple languages. My take on elemental shapes is they speak through magic, as they are an element itself, so can speak any language.

With this in mind, the forms that do not have the ability to easily speak any language other than their own, I use animal. And most of the time I am emote heavy. Body language is everything. Hunched back, lowered belly, swishing tail, whiskers pulled back, snarling, "bouncing" spider body. I try to get an idea across of my polymorphed character's general mood or reaction through emotes.

One thing I have seen is people just speaking in common as a wolf, or elven, dwarven, what have you. No reasoning behind it. When questioned, they either ignore it or say "Magic". I find this a bit lazy. One really cool idea was they used magic to make the words form from nature around them. The wind brushes against the leaves just right, and words are formed. It was actually pretty interesting and was better simply saying "magic" causes it. It gave explanation, and perhaps a talking point with the character of how it works, and maybe teaching it. Leads to interesting interactions!

[Diilicious]

There's a level of...I don't want to call it hypocrisy, because it is too strong a word, but perhaps a..disconnect between what is and isn't considered immersive and justifiable within the fantasy realm our characters exist in.

If I understand some of the opinions I have read above, it is totally fine, and no one bats an eyelid, if a druid is capable of:

- Turning into a giant red dragon, or a slaad, or any number of bestial shapes in the case of a non-totem.

- Be completly immune to poison.

- Be able to turn into the very raw elemental forms of the multi-verse.

- Call down flaming boulders from the sky.

- Summon forth clouds of insects that will eat creatures alive.

- Take control of twisting, near-sentient vines that can hold down and tear creatures apart.

- Effectively tap into and alter the very basics, almost ethereal laws of an ecosystem so that it is "Balanced."

- Achieve such high numbers in a mental stat such as Wisdom that they are likely walking in a permanent state of nirvana.


And yet, somehow, if they talk in Common while magically morphing their bodies into those of animals, that is somehow what breaks the glass?

That does not add up, in my personal opinion.


Sure, like anything else in this game, it can be poorly done. I have seen it and cringed because of it. But with a wee bit of imagination (which is sitll the driving force behind what happens here on Arelith), and some attention to detail, it can also add to the game world.

Final point: A druid shifted into an animal shape is not equal to the actual original animal. There's a whole lot more going on behind it.

I absolutely understand what you mean in this post, but I too honestly when a dog runs up to my character and starts having a merry old chat in common, it immediately takes me completely out of the game, I just cant suspend my belief to such a thing.

The rub is really that we know pretty much all that can be known about these animals, we know that even if they were magical they dont have the vocal capacity to speak the language we speak, either via movement of the mouth and tongue, or the structure of the throat. even if the animal had a million intelligence it wouldnt be able to talk like a person.

Also and perhaps more importantly one of the things that make them so endearing to us is that they dont speak the language we speak but sometimes seem to be more perceptive and alert than most of us. so the animal suddenly talking to us in our own language loses them almost everything that makes them loveable and relatable.

Dragons get a pass because they are not real creatures and so there are naturally many, many unanswered questions about them that help us suspend our belief.

In mythology its more likely that animals like snakes that will be able to speak, because they are and have always been a deadly predator of ours, (and we can see this in the NWN prevalently with snake cults and lizard people etc)

[Wytchee]

No speaking common in animal forms. Please. It's silly and immersion breaking, and no amount of "but what ifs" can make it not silly and immersion breaking.

Chiefly, remember that you are a druid, not some meme class that shifts into animals as a parlor trick. As a druid, you should respect the abilities and limitations of the animal you're transforming into. A talking wolf is a parlor trick, and is not only inconsistent with the nature of that animal but is disrespectful to your totem. ;D Try not to upset the balance just because talking in common in animal form is more convenient than shapeshifting back to humanoid form.

In FR settings, Dragons can talk. It's acceptable. Wolves, however, do not have the voice box/accouterments required for speech, and neither do bats, snakes, etc.; thus a wolf speaking common is unnatural and simply wouldn't happen. Why would a druid willingly and regularly do something that is unnatural? That's the whole reason we have an animal language.

Parrots and ravens, maybe some /limited/ common could be spoken, just not entire monologues. They're clever and known to mimic human speech. Just use common sense and respect the fact that a talking dog is going to be jarring to other players.

One of the reasons I've avoided grove RP on Maedathenniel for SO LONG is because I once walked into the grove to witness a talking wolf and NOPED right out of there. I don't mean to criticize others' roleplay but I found it silly and immersion breaking and wanted to remain consistent in my own RP of "animal language only while in animal form."

Tl;dr Animals speaking common is functionally impractical, just freakin' silly and risks breaking the fourth wall.

[Nitro]

Tl;dr Animals speaking common is functionally impractical, just freakin' silly and risks breaking the fourth wall.

I disagree, animals talking to adventurers is one of the more common staples of fantasy literature, and even pops up in various forgotten realm books, most often due to some sort of magical influence. So would it really be such a suspension of disbelief to imagine that a wildshaped druid or polymorphed wizard use some magical means to communicate verbally in the common tongue?

[Wytchee]

Tl;dr Animals speaking common is functionally impractical, just freakin' silly and risks breaking the fourth wall.

I disagree, animals talking to adventurers is one of the more common staples of fantasy literature, and even pops up in various forgotten realm books, most often due to some sort of magical influence. So would it really be such a suspension of disbelief to imagine that a wildshaped druid or polymorphed wizard use some magical means to communicate verbally in the common tongue?

A polymorphed wizard, certainly. But my interpretation of druid RP disallows common-speaking animals with few exceptions. Respect the abilities and limitations of the animal you're transforming into if you're a druid. If you're a wizard, this rule of course doesn't apply.

Also, just on a functional level, how is the animal communicating? Telepathically? Because wolves and indeed most animals can't move their mouths/tongues/etc. in a way that facilitates speech. This albeit is a little nitpicky of me, but lends to the silliness of it all in my view.

If someone in character asked Mae why she doesn't speak common while in her eagle form, she'd reply with something along the lines of "I don't have lips."

Maybe I'm just a hardliner when it comes to druid RP, I don't know. I just feel that a druid wouldn't go out of her way to do something that is not in line with the nature of her totem for the sake of convenience. When in her totem form, Mae is an eagle, not an Elf in the shape of an eagle. She hunts rodents, flies, and roosts nestled in cliff faces. It's not just another one of her forms for her, it's a spiritual link to a totem animal and she'll respect the fact that eagles don't talk.

[Lorkas]

Also, just on a functional level, how is the animal communicating? Telepathically? Because wolves and indeed most animals can't move their mouths/tongues/etc. in a way that facilitates speech. This albeit is a little nitpicky of me, but lends to the silliness of it all in my view.

Given that a druid can already turn into a shape that is exactly like an animal but keep their same brain, I don't find it so far-fetched that a druid might be able to turn into a shape that's exactly like a badger, except with a slightly different throat, tongue, and mouth so that they're able to form the sounds they would need to communicate in a non-animal language.

The druid needs to do it really well to make it not be jarring though. Set the scene, emote about the intelligence that's apparent behind the animal's eyes in some way, and use a lot of emotes while actually saying things (at least at first). Do the extra work on this, and it's a lot easier to accept as part of the world.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Wytchee, you are totally entitled to your opinion, but I think common-speaking druids can be super cool. Tbh, I find it more immersion breaking when druids somehow forego all humanity and suddenly become some kind of animal. To me, I think it's fundamentally flawed (and unnatural) that druids, once humanoids, suddenly think their shapeshifting into a non-humanoid, does not upset the Balance. Talk about interventionism at its finest.

[PresidentCthulhu]

Not sure it's the right way, but I personally do it like this:
When animal shaped I speak only on animal, but do so fluently. If the animal technically could speak on a "human" language, then I moderately speak on it (i.e. raven as it was allowed even as an arcane familiar and birds biologically could speak). But I usually highlight it sounds weird voice-like.

To be honest if I would meet with someone who would talk fluently on a human language in an animal form I wouldn't be offended as I think it is far within the realm of possibilities in a world where magic exists. Most people I met (including myself ) are just not doing it as it is more interesting that way. *shrug*

[Rockstar1984]

I don't mind animals speaking in common sometimes. I do find it immersion breaking when an animal comes to Cordor and all of a sudden starts speaking in a language like it's no big deal, that's kinda dumb. But if a druid actually builds up a feel of mystery by talking to travelers in the woods in some wise or cryptic manner of speech? That's fine for me. If talking while wild shaped is done to actually convey the feel of mystery and magic that folklore tales with talking animals have it's completely different then just a random wild shaped druid walking up to Johnny EveryAdventurer in the middle of Cordor and going "Hi, I'm doge".

[Rivace_Silver]

all of your opinions and viewpoints are valid..

Im just going to say that DND and Fantasy is riddled with animals being able to speak common. Snakes in particular come to mind!

Parrots (in real life) can imitate sounds of language (polly want a cracker?)

Sure the wolf walking right through town whistling and saying "how do?" to every passer by is a bit off ..

I think this issue is more on a per person basis and needs to be handled on a per person basis ..

i do not think NWN is dnd rule set 3.5 either .. so please use defnitions and rules from the actual ruleset we are playing in. i think its 2.5? 3.5 is just before World of Warcraft which is 4.0 ... correct me if im completely wrong.

Also keep in mind that when animals speak in animal language they are communicating fluently.. so there does not need to be a disruption in the quality of the words typed in this language ..

remember that our typed words are communicating ideas and when you say "I will go for a run" that does not mean that the bear is sitting on a toad stool loudly declaring that he will go for a run. its the idea that is being communicated and we as players can only type this idea into a chat box .. try not to let it bother you to such a degree that it causes you stress.

Certainly some players can get better at emoting .. im terrible at it but i try to get better by watching and imitating.

I play a bear totem druid and at the end of the day im going to have fun and play the way i feel makes the experience. im still learning how and when and what to emote, and sometimes an idea needs to be communicated NOW and to hell with formality.. am i to OOC that information? or fumble and bumble with a paragraph of emotes to try to play cherades which can take a very long time ... No .. i am just going to say it and move on with the adventure.. I also bounce in and out of poly so freaking often just to say a few words .. its really annoying.. Im so glad i got 16 finally so i can just stay in an elemental shape .. they can speak.. we literally have NPC's that are elementals that we converse with in the campaign .. (and maybe on server?)

Those are my thoughts! No one is wrong! Everyone has their way to look at it ! we can all put forth a bit of effort to make the experience better!

[Wytchee]

Though my opinion seems to be in the minority, I still find casually talking animals to be immersion breaking to the point where I actively avoid characters who do it. This is not something I can help. Not saying it can't theoretically be done well, but I've yet to meet a druid who spoke in common in a way that didn't give me flashbacks to my furry days on Second Life (no shame).

Other than my opinion, what's the point in having an animal language if it becomes commonly accepted that druids can speak common in animal form?

To a wizard, shapeshifting is whatever. To a druid, in my opinion, you're taking on more than just the shape of an animal. You're taking on the form and function, the archetype, the role that animal plays in "the balance." I get most people don't see druidism as black and white as I do (looking at you monk druids), but this is a hill I'm TOTALLY willing to die on.