RANULF THE QUEST NIGHT

[Oshido]

Ever since I've played here there have been monster races rping in Sib and it's something I really enjoy. Regardless of whether one sees it as such or not there have always been monster races there. Personally Sib being another surfacer only settlement is boring. We have those. They receive a lot of attention. Having a out of the way settlement that accepts any leaves room for a lot of cool rp and build options. A perfect place for unconventional and unorthodox concepts. Plus. The no kill script thing.

[Ferret Roll]

My own opinion has always been that the community misinterpreted the dev team's intentions with Sibayad.

There are no monster npcs in the town. The slavery themes seemed to be more along the lines of indentured servitude for until a slaver npc got put in than Andunor's "slaves4lyfe" situation. Just because they're far from mainland society, and dealing in some things that might be illegal elsewhere, doesn't mean that these merchants are suddenly okie-dokie with drow and other monsters just strolling right on through.

It's a pretty far fall for someone to go from being a criminal for the sake of profit into willingly associating with monsters that would more than likely want to enslave, kill, or torture them. Possibly any combination of the three.

As for the lack of kill scripts there, I think it's because they're not a well-defended city like Cordor, Brogendenstein, or the others that have kill scripts to defend them.

Guldorand doesn't have kill scripts because as cool as axe-wielding lumberjacks throwing down with UD monsters would be, it's not a proper guard force and they're not especially well defended. A lack of a killscript doesn't suggest that monsters are intended to be a part of Sibayad; just that Sibayad lacks the immediate necessary defenses to repel all would-be intruders.


TL;DR - Monsters can go to Sibayad, with no mechanics impeding them, and without (usually) being murdered on the spot. Doesn't mean they should.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I mean, if the Outpost's Minotaur started murdering low level surfacers trying to walk to Andunor. We'd be having the same discussion but with more rage.

[gilescorey]

No we wouldn't. Why are low level surfacers wandering down to Andunor? Stop trying to incite another "us vs them" Underdark thing pls.

[Durvayas]

Underdarkers have always been allowed to wander in sibiyad. It is a neutral settlement often used as a bridge and meeting point between surface and UD PCs. UD characters are not allowed to purchase land there(otherwise it would fully be a UD base), but sibiyad has always explicitely been a 'don't fight in the market and the merchants who run the place don't care' calimport sort of place.

Law and order are relatively unimportant there. The mercenary NPCs are solely there to protect the merchants. UDers are able to go there freely, at will, and I've encountered DMs at sibiyad, easily bribed the guard NPCs not to tell anyone my PCs are there, and gone about my business. I even had a drow living on the town outskirts for 5 months.

Ranulf is a buggy NPC. He hostiles all UD characters, but only attacks a 5th of the time, if that. The no killing NPCs rule extends to neutral NPCs. If he's glowing red and rushes you, you can kill him. Seriously, this topic has been brought up like a dozen times now. XD

[High Primate]

You can also run around Guldorand in broad daylight as a Goblin, "lol because I can :^)" is hardly a justification.

Except this is Sibbayad, which is a place of loose morals that trades in slaves and is generally more tolerant of Underdarkers. I take it the knight does not exactly represent the character of the city and is something of a vigilante.

[gilescorey]

I don't have anything to add after Ferret Roll's post tbh. If you can't see the logic behind it I don't know what to tell you.

[High Primate]

Okay? I don't know what to say beyond Oshido's post, except that there's an IGly established history of monster races going there. It hasn't (as far as I know) resulted in any "tea & crumpets" RP, and it's not like they stick around long; they go there to trade. If you want it to change, change it IG.

[gilescorey]

IG tradition != inherently a good thing

[High Primate]

1. You've failed to establish why it's bad for UDers to go there.

2. IG tradition (in most cases) sets the tone for what's normal in-universe and thus to normal roleplay; it defines the setting that the characters live in. Without any pressing reason to do otherwise (see my point #1), that's a good enough reason to adhere to it. This is my point in invoking it here.

[High Primate]

Also:

There are no monster npcs in the town. The slavery themes seemed to be more along the lines of indentured servitude for until a slaver npc got put in than Andunor's "slaves4lyfe" situation.

What are you basing that on? Is there someone in the setting who is saying that, or are you inventing this claim yourself? You can capture an NPC, or a player, and sell it there into slavery, so obviously it's not a true claim; Sibbayad practices slavery.

[Ferret Roll]

Also:

There are no monster npcs in the town. The slavery themes seemed to be more along the lines of indentured servitude for until a slaver npc got put in than Andunor's "slaves4lyfe" situation.

What are you basing that on? Is there someone in the setting who is saying that, or are you inventing this claim yourself? You can capture an NPC, or a player, and sell it there into slavery, so obviously it's not a true claim; Sibbayad practices slavery.

[High Primate]

Then make a post telling the admins to remove it. It's not reasonable to just expect players of UD characters to know about the good ol' days of Sibbayad and roleplay the way you want them to. I haven't really seen an argument for keeping them out of there beyond a few players who simply don't like it, largely for their own idiosyncratic reasons, and clearly that's not a unanimous sentiment on these forums.

[gilescorey]

1. You've failed to establish why it's bad for UDers to go there.

dumb shit like kobolds and drow wandering in the middle of a busy, human merchant town in the desert from happening.

Says who? The only "monster" NPC around Sibayad is several zones away, by the oasis, by himself and Noxt I think it was in the past said that Outcasts cannot own property in the town itself but the two exterior forts are fine).

If outcasts can't own property, why would it be fine for monsters to run around. If a monster NPC stays far from the town , and has a little force of his own mercenaries sitting a few feet away, why would it be fine for monsters to run around the town. Why would the NPCs go "oh, hm, this [Insert murderous monster that is widely feared or otherwise reviled across Faerun] is probably just wanting to buy a potion, that's fine."

??? I just don't understand how you or anyone else could think this is okay to do.

[High Primate]

dumb shit like kobolds and drow wandering in the middle of a busy, human merchant town in the desert from happening.

This is like saying it was dumb shit for surfacers to go to Jared's trading post, back in the day. You haven't shown that Sibbayad is a place that Underdarkers are not supposed to go to, the DMs and Admins haven't said that Underdarkers are not allowed to go there, and with the exception of Ranulf, the NPC guards there don't attack them. It also begs the question to say that it's bad for kobolds and drow to go to Sibbayad because doing so is "dumb shit". Why is it "dumb shit"? As long as it's roleplayed appropriately and they do not overstay their welcome, I don't think there's a problem with it.

Though we've been through this, the busy human merchant town trades in slaves and has been known to harbor people who do business with them. It's not, by and large, a good-aligned town; it's a merchant-town and the driving force there is wealth and opportunism, so it makes sense that people would be willing to do business with Underdark races occasionally.

I think it was in the past said that Outcasts cannot own property in the town itself but the two exterior forts are fine).

But they didn't say monster races are not allowed to go there. I believe they did say they can go there as long as they aren't too friendly with the surfacers who live there. They've not as of yet disallowed it.

If outcasts can't own property, why would it be fine for monsters to run around. If a monster NPC stays far from the town , and has a little force of his own mercenaries sitting a few feet away, why would it be fine for monsters to run around the town. Why would the NPCs go "oh, hm, this [Insert murderous monster that is widely feared or otherwise reviled across Faerun] is probably just wanting to buy a potion, that's fine."

Why would the drow in Arelith allow surfacers in Andunor, when drow in Faerun are, by and large, known to murder surfacers on sight? That's the nature of Andunor; Underdarkers are allowed as long as they adhere to certain forms of behavior. If you want that to change, change it IG. Make it so that it makes no sense for Underdarkers to be there by changing the social norms in Sibbayad. Right now, as I understand them, the norms are loose, and Ranulf is the exception, not the rule.

[Ferret Roll]

Then make a post telling the admins to remove it. It's not reasonable to just expect players of UD characters to know about the good ol' days of Sibbayad and roleplay the way you want them to. I haven't really seen an argument for keeping them out of there beyond a few players who simply don't like it, largely for their own idiosyncratic reasons, and clearly that's not a unanimous sentiment on these forums.

While there are some changes I think would add nice flavor by putting some distinctions between the slavery practices of Andunor and Sibayad, the devs work on what interests them and if I were in their shoes, I wouldn't really appreciate someone "telling" me what to work on.

Everything I mentioned in my post was just my opinion, and of course people are free to disagree with it. I don't expect anyone to pull a 180 on their existing RP or their own views, I just thought to offer a few considerations for why Sibayad has a paladin npc murdering monsters that hang out there.

Why would the drow in Arelith allow surfacers in Andunor, when drow in Faerun are, by and large, known to murder surfacers on sight?

While I haven't dug up a quote on it, it's easy enough to find stated by the devs numerous times across the forums that Andunor is intended to be more like Skull Port than Menzoberranzan. The "Be Nice" rule is also a consideration for why drow aren't murdering surfacers on sight.

[High Primate]

While I haven't dug up a quote on it, it's easy enough to find stated by the devs numerous times across the forums that Andunor is intended to be more like Skull Port than Menzoberranzan. The "Be Nice" rule is also a consideration for why drow aren't murdering surfacers on sight.

This is basically my point. Skullport is an exception, not the rule, and it's normal for both Underdarkers and surfacers to associate there. And unless there some change that either takes place IG or is enforced by the admins, it's acceptable for Underdarks to go to Andunor to trade in things like slaves, as long as doing so is roleplayed with an appropriate level of mistrust and they're not sitting on pillow placeables with surfacers, drinking chai tea and singing Kumbayah.

[gilescorey]

This is like saying it was dumb shit for surfacers to go to Jared's trading post, back in the day. You haven't shown that Sibbayad is a place that Underdarkers are not supposed to go to, the DMs and Admins haven't said that Underdarkers are not allowed to go there, and with the exception of Ranulf, the NPC guards there don't attack them.

I don't know what kind of evidence you want. There's a kobold NPC that is outside the town, instead of in it. Surely if monsters were hunky dory to hang out in Sibayad this kobold NPC would also hang out there, instead of only a scant few feet from yuan-ti and orcs? There's nothing outright bold stated, but surely you can infer the obvious. Surely.

Though we've been through this, the busy human merchant town trades in slaves and has been known to harbor people who do business with them. It's not, by and large, a good-aligned town; it's a merchant-town and the driving force there is wealth and opportunism, so it makes sense that people would be willing to do business with Underdark races occasionally.

Seriously, being an evil slaver does in No Way Whatsoever equate to being fine with monsters or god forbid drow just because they have slaves too. That's a ridiculous assertion. It doesn't even sound logical.

But they didn't say monster races are not allowed to go there. I believe they did say they can go there as long as they aren't too friendly with the surfacers who live there. They've not as of yet

Why would they bar outcasts and be fine with monsters coming in? Maybe they're barring Outcasts because -- wait for it -- they have ties to the Underdark.

Why would the drow in Arelith allow surfacers in Andunor, when drow in Faerun are, by and large, known to murder surfacers on sight? That's the nature of Andunor; surfacers are allowed as long as they adhere to certain forms of behavior.

Andunor != Sibayad. They aren't the same thing by any stretch of the word.

[Ferret Roll]

This is basically my point. Skullport is an exception, not the rule, and it's normal for both Underdarkers and surfacers to associate there. And unless there some change that either takes place IG or is enforced by the admins, it's acceptable for Underdarks to go to Andunor to trade in things like slaves, as long as doing so is roleplayed with an appropriate level of mistrust and they're not sitting on pillow placeables with surfacers, drinking chai tea and singing Kumbayah.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is acceptable for Underdarkers to go to Andunor. For Sibayad though, there's not a very diverse population represented with the npcs. This suggests to me that the town isn't actually like Andunor, and that it tends to frown on monstrous things walking the streets.

Slightly off topic, the fact there's an Androsphinx through a cave right next to the slaver npc in Sibayad does strike me as a little odd. Being inherently goodly creatures, I can't imagine it would be terribly comfortable with what transpires just up the steps behind it.

[Hunter548]

If Sibayad is "intended" to be a monster-friendly city, why did the the devs add both A) an NPC who attempts to murder any monster he sees at the main entrance said monsters are likely to be taking`to get to Sibayad and B) An NPC monster race on the other side of the desert from Sibayad who says that he's not welcome there?

Also, RE: Andunor: A) It's not Menzo, B) Menzo has free, non-slave humans living in it, so presumably even the most extreme of drow are able to control themselves from immediatly murdering every human they see C) Drow don't hold any more antipathy for humans than they do for duergar, illithid, goblins, gnolls, etc etc etc -- Why would these be fine in Andunor, but humans not be? D) Andunor isn't drow-run or drow majority anyways: The ultimate implication seems to be that the Hub is run by Jhared from the old Trade Post.


Edit:

Slightly off topic, the fact there's an Androsphinx through a cave right next to the slaver npc in Sibayad does strike me as a little odd. Being inherently goodly creatures, I can't imagine it would be terribly comfortable with what transpires just up the steps behind it.

Is it an androsphinx, or a lammasu? I had been assuming the latter, given that it speaks of oaths sworn to defend the tombs (Which are a common role of lammasu in Mulhorand and Horus Re's service) but they two presumably would use the same model.

[Ferret Roll]

Is it an androsphinx, or a lammasu? I had been assuming the latter, given that it speaks of oaths sworn to defend the tombs (Which are a common role of lammasu in Mulhorand and Horus Re's service) but they two presumably would use the same model.

I can't quite recall, as I haven't looked at it in a while. Lammasu are also inherently good aligned creatures though, so the same issues sort of present themselves. An oath to guard against the undead keeps it busy at night, but it's not terribly busy in the daylight hours and it has to know what's going on behind it - the slavery (currently) presented in Sibayad doesn't seem to be the more humane sort that the Mulhorandi pantheon promotes.

At least a little dialogue hinting distaste would be nice.

[High Primate]

I don't know what kind of evidence you want. There's a kobold NPC that is outside the town, instead of in it.

1. The fact that the kobold is not inside of Sibbayad does not mean that kobolds are prohibited from entering Sibbayad at all.

2. The kobold lives outside of Sibbayad. I am not arguing that Underdark races should be allowed to live in Sibbayad.

Surely if monsters were hunky dory to hang out in Sibayad this kobold NPC would also hang out there, instead of only a scant few feet from yuan-ti and orcs?

No. See my point #2. "Hunky dory" also implies a level of comfort that I am not claiming monsters are entitled to. I'm perfectly fine, for instance, with there being a Paladin there who will attack them, with players harassing them, and with business partners being cautious around them. You seem to be under the impression that I am advocating certain practices and policies that I am not.

There's nothing outright bold stated, but surely you can infer the obvious. Surely.

.

On the contrary, you surely cannot make that inference. See my point #1 and the distinction between living there and entering it for a finite amount of time.

Seriously, being an evil slaver does in No Way Whatsoever equate to being fine with monsters or god forbid drow just because they have slaves too. That's a ridiculous assertion. It doesn't even sound logical.

I'm not claiming that the practice of enslavement in Sibbayad is a sufficient reason to tolerate monsters there, but a settlement that is willing to trade in them is probably more likely to do so than one where it is illegal. That's one part of my argument. Another part of my argument is that Underdarkers are already going in there and trading slaves with PCs who live there. Thus, it's a de facto truth that Underdarkers are allowed there; Sibbayad is a place that tolerates them, because, matter of factly, they are allowed there. You've been arguing that it makes no sense for them to be there because Sibbayad wouldn't tolerate them. But clearly there are and have been people there who tolerate them--the PCs, who generally are the ones who get to define the setting. I imagine your impulse now to say something along the lines of "Yes, but should they be allowed to go there? Just because they are allowed there, doesn't mean they should be." But if you think they shouldn't be, you aren't allowed to defend that assertion by way of claiming that it makes no sense for them to be tolerated there. People do tolerate them there, for IC reasons that actually make reasonable sense to me, and you haven't explained to me why they shouldn't. If you think their presence there is in some way harmful to the server climate or threatens to undermine the norms of surfacer-UD relationships for the rest of the server, please explain why.

Why would they bar outcasts and be fine with monsters coming in? Maybe they're barring Outcasts because -- wait for it -- they have ties to the Underdark.

Here I shall note two things:

(1) (This goes back to my original point about the kobold.) They've barred Outcasts from living there, but they have not barred them from entering. Those are two different things, and disallowing the one doesn't make it an inevitable conclusion that they disallow the other.

(2) Banning outcasts from owning property on the surface was a server-wide change. It's not entirely clear that the admins had Sibbayad directly in mind when they did it. But even if they did, see my point (1).

Andunor != Sibayad. They aren't the same thing by any stretch of the word.

They don't have to be for my point to stand, my point being simply that there exist places in Arelith, and the Forgotten Realms, where surface and Underdark races have been known to reluctantly mingle, and a case exists that Sibbayad is one of them, which I've been arguing for here.

[gilescorey]

1. The fact that the kobold is not outside of Sibbayad does not mean that kobolds are prohibited from entering Sibbayad at all.

2. The kobold lives outside of Sibbayad. I am not arguing that Underdark races should be allowed to live in Sibbayad.

Then why isn't he doing his trading inside the town, instead of in a dangerous area? If he was allowed in you'd think he would be, or at least a bit closer, right?

No. See my point #2. "Hunky dory" also implies a level of comfort that I am not claiming monsters are entitled to. I'm perfectly fine, for instance, with there being a Paladin there who will attack them, with players harassing them, and with business partners being cautious around them. You seem to be under the impression that I am advocating certain practices and policies that I am not.

Well, okay, maybe you aren't advocating that, but why are you okay with murdering this dude (the titular Ranulf, who's thread has been hopelessly derailed into hell-town) who's apparently there to deter things, and then going and pretending like nothing ever happened and just going about whatever you were going to do anyway?

I'm not claiming that ...[snip for sake of post length]

Okay, I've been trying to just allude to it instead of stating it outright but the fact of the matter is that sometimes players do things that clash with the spirit of the server, either with (very rare)specific intent, apathy, or misinterpretation. I've definitely done it, maybe you've done it, and I bet you can agree with me in saying that you've disagreed with peoples' interpretations of certain systems or things before. Maybe that's mean, and bad, and awful to say but I don't think it's wrong.

Perhaps it's not a bad thing by the general virtue of itself, but neither is it something I would classify as good. I think sliding into "yeah, but people did it so it's fine" mode Is a bad thing though, just going along with whatever people are doing because they're doing it, whether it's going to Sibayad or any other example you want to use. Monsters coming to a trading town on the surface to buy wands, or adamantine, or what have you from shop stalls or other PCs feels lame to me. It smacks of the cheap and impersonal, imo devaluing what it is to be monstrous and maligned.

I don't think it's a good thing to walk, run amok, or wander within Sibayad proper as a monster beyond weird and especial circumstance. It doesn't feel monstrous. It feels rote, and like you have to do some not-quite-complex mental gymnastics in order to justify a presence there, where the basis resides in that other people are doing it.

(1) (This goes back to my original point about the kobold.) They've barred Outcasts from living there, but they have not barred them from entering. Those are two different things, and disallowing the one doesn't make it an inevitable conclusion that they disallow the other.

Outcasts should not quite be barred, to my eyes, from surface cities but deeply inconvenienced, so as to feel unwelcome and to encourage their departure as soon as possible. Laurick not offering them service and the property change were good steps, but honestly I'd prefer something even more strict. I think it's better to discourage them from getting too comfortable top-side.

(2) Banning outcasts from owning property on the surface was a server-wide change. It's not entirely clear that the admins had Sibbayad directly in mind when they did it. But even if they did, see my point (1).

I think they didn't have any specific place in mind, but if Outcasts aren't allowed to live there, it makes sense to me to say that outright monsters would be even less wanted -- to the point where I would think a responsive NPC would grab a torch or a suitably desert-themed pitchfork.

They don't have to be for my point to stand, my point being simply that there exist places in Arelith, and the Forgotten Realms, where surface and Underdark races have been known to reluctantly mingle, and a case exists that Sibbayad is one of them, which I've been arguing for here.

Andunor is one of them. In my opinion, Sibayad does not and should not fulfil that same role in a lesser capacity. It fulfils a nice niche as a sort of morally dubious slaving town, owned and operated by a shady group of mysterious merchants. That does not exactly call to my mind that they want anyone who consorts very deeply with the Underdark to waltz in and do some trading.

lovely i spent way too much time on this post

[Lorkas]

One thing that's worth noting, if we want to talk about dev intentions without a dev here.

When kill-scripts were removed from other surface settlements (including Cordor!), the thing that was put in place was the sort of auto-hostile behavior that you see from Ranulf. If a UDer travels into a surface settlement, even polymorphed and disguised, the NPCs turn hostile to the UDer. Most of the time, they don't attack, but it prevents the UDer from speaking to them, meaning that UDers can't make use of banking services, NPC shops, or anything like that.

So here's the part worth noting: apart from Ranulf, this auto-hostiling behavior does not happen in Sibayad. I always interpreted this to mean that the devs intended for Sibayad to be a bazaar town where even the UDers could come in, trade, and get out. Sibayad isn't so homogeneous that every single NPC in the settlement itself is likely to share the views of a random questing knight who is outside the town.

Further noteworthy thing: the devs explicitly put in a (gated) passage from the UD to the island of Sibayad, and did not have the captain who sails to Sibayad refuse UDers passage, even though Laurick does refuse to offer passage to said UDers.

At the very least, Sibayad is something between an Andunor-like settlement and a main-island surface settlement. I don't see why it would be terribly disruptive for UD characters to move within the settlement. Taking a more active roll than that in shaping Sibayad's setting is probably inappropriate, though.

[High Primate]

Well, okay, maybe you aren't advocating that, but why are you okay with murdering this dude (the titular Ranulf, who's thread has been hopelessly derailed into hell-town) who's apparently there to deter things, and then going and pretending like nothing ever happened and just going about whatever you were going to do anyway?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6PDcBhODqo&t=1m43s

You mean like how all the people in that video just go back to their business like nothing happened after Obi-Wan kills two people? Because maybe that's the kind of place Sibbayad is.