Kensai Update

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:00 pm

I'm very curious to see what kensai paladin-dips look like now.

That extra APR is huuuge. And I also imagine it stacks with all forms of attack? Aka, we can kama monks with 11 APR for the kicks?

This seems like a cool place for paladins and rangers now. They could be built to not really be reliant on their spellbooks anyways, so super neat!
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Cortex
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:19 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I'm very curious to see what kensai paladin-dips look like now.

That extra APR is huuuge. And I also imagine it stacks with all forms of attack? Aka, we can kama monks with 11 APR for the kicks?

This seems like a cool place for paladins and rangers now. They could be built to not really be reliant on their spellbooks anyways, so super neat!
The new APR stacks with literally anything. I don't know how viable ranger or paladin kensai can be, but it should at least let you toy with new things.
:)

Tetra
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Tetra » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:19 pm

I doubt many would say this isn't a vast improvement for new kensai characters (and new players who might be enticed to play a Kensai without knowing the limitations of the old one.) I think we're all grateful for the work put into the update.

The problem that stands is existing characters were not build with this new kensai model in mind. It's not what they wanted to play or what they bargained for and their choices along the way were for a very, very different class model. I do not believe it is fair to do this to players in a game with such slow leveling and linear building. Grandfathering the old model kensai and making this a new path would be a good way to go, but I also strongly think with EVERY big change there should be an allowance to let these players do a maintenance rebuild to keep up. I don't think this is an unreasonable thing to ask, and it would also let people playing classes like PDK and spellsword that are still being tinkered with heavily (and are almost guaranteed to change again soon, in ways that are sure to leave some people in the dust) to accommodate, and also not to stress about their characters being screwed by some future update they couldn't have predicted. It's not like it hasn't happened a few times in the past, most recently allowing feylocks to rebuild.

Nitro
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Nitro » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:04 am

We can't have characters grandfathered every time there is a balance change though, then we'd still have crazy OP warlocks from the olden glory days of warlocks being the kings of everything running around, being powerful just on virtue of old characters being unaffected by patches.

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Ambigue
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Ambigue » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:48 am

Nitro wrote:We can't have characters grandfathered every time there is a balance change though, then we'd still have crazy OP warlocks from the olden glory days of warlocks being the kings of everything running around, being powerful just on virtue of old characters being unaffected by patches.
I remember playing once, many years ago, when someone logged in as a lich.

In Cordor.

This wasn't a hack or an accident or anything. He had been just been grandfathered in that hard from that long ago. It was impressive, really. Only saw him once, though, so I presume the DMs worked something out with him.

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Cortex
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Cortex » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:52 am

Liches were never allowed back in the day, unless... it's super ultra back in the day. Could've been a PM pretending to be a lich, or a shifter with undead shape.
:)

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Ambigue
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Ambigue » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:14 am

Cortex wrote:Liches were never allowed back in the day, unless... it's super ultra back in the day. Could've been a PM pretending to be a lich, or a shifter with undead shape.
I know it was a character, rather than a DM. I know it wasn't a shifter in lich form because he wasn't using a lich model. He was using the fancy mummy model. The only reason I say 'lich' is because that's what he introduced himself as.

I talked with him over tells for a few. This was back in late 2005, maybe early 2006? Back when the split between Amia and Arelith was relatively recent and the Cordor/Stonehold thing was really getting underway.

The bad old days of gating in Balor's into Cordor proper and running away. Before PKing was limited to 1-a-day. Back when the streets were so rife with thieves able to pick your pockets that you basically just stayed a good distance away from everyone and filled up every spare inventory space with single bullets.

And the guy said he hadn't played for a while and that he was popping in to see what Jerm and them had done with the server. I don't remember his character name and I don't think I ever saw the player name again. It's possible it was the result of a DM pulling shenanigans of some sort (before being booted for making himself a fancy player character, surely), but that's not the impression I got.

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RedGiant
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by RedGiant » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:20 am

Re: Irongron
Amazing and thoughtful response. Thanks!

I do believe almost all hurt feelings could be avoided, however, if the developers created space for player autonomy in the decision. Incorporating some of what I'm hearing in this post, I think the options are rather simple, and as of the last Warlock changes, we certainly have the technology.

I would humbly present the following options on future class changes, which, if the Devs consent to offer it, I think would end most reasonable complaint.

Image
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Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

Sab1
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Sab1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:40 am

I think it comes down to it's impossible to allow rebuilds after ever change or keep grandfathering every time. Every change has the good and bad. There will always be happy and upset people. I honestly don't see why someone was so built on speed that this ruins their character. Is using haste that bad?

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Lorkas
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Lorkas » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:44 am

I wish people would distinguish between "did not have to chug potions" and "could not chug potions".

You still do not have to chug potions.

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GwaiLo
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by GwaiLo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:19 am

Chugging potions is addictive. Be warned kids.

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Iceborn
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Iceborn » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:39 am

Not to play devil's advocate here, but being unable to use magic at all was a weigh off the mind. Simply, the option not being available would mean that your playstyle would be... simpler; you wouldn't have to worry about a facet of maximization and stat optimization because you simply... wouldn't have access to the spells.

Now, that's a thing again.

Still. I do like the new kensai, even if I'm not entirely certain what they are supposed to be anymore.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Black Wendigo
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Black Wendigo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:09 am

If I might ask, could we get some insight as to what kensai is supposed to be on Arelith?, I am talking about design wise. Because right now the class has changed radically so many times that it does not have a center. We cannot create a kensai char if we do not know what a kensai is suposed to be, let alone role play with one for the same reason.

I do not ask for rebuilds, grandfathering and so forth, because I agree that it doesn't make sense to do this every time something changes.

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Lorkas
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Lorkas » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:59 am

They're very similar to before. They are more focused on skill with their weapon, are more resistant to magic, but can't use as many magical items themselves, compared to non kensai characters.

They just aren't champion sprinters anymore.

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Peppermint
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Peppermint » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:41 am

The kensai permahaste speed has only existed since this year. It's a fairly recent change.

And yes, from a pure mechanics/server design direction, it was a bad direction to go in.

Guys, I understand your frustration. I understand that it was fun. I really do.

But sometimes, things that are fun are also unhealthy.

Permanent speed makes you immune to the server. You don't have to worry about anything in PvE. You can just walk away. You don't have to worry about anything in PvP. You can just walk away. Sure, the kensai was balanced in that it was also "weak", but the fact that its mere existence encouraged this kind of disconnect was really unhealthy.

It had to go.

To those of you that chose to incorporate this path into your roleplay, I'm sorry. I wasn't privy to the decision to give kensai full speed to begin with, but I do still feel responsible for anything that happens on Arelith. Do I have the ability to make changes as I see fit? No, of course not. But I do still have the power to make my voice heard, and I should have certainly been more vocal about this one.

It was pretty inevitable this change would have to happen someday. But no one had to have their concepts suffer for it. That sucks, and I sympathize, I really do. It's largely my fault.

But change still has to happen. That's inevitable.

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Xylou
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Xylou » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:05 am

Some are speaking about "grandfathering a character"... but even after searching on the forum, I haven't found anything accurate about it.
May I ask what it means ? Thanks in advance.

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Ambigue
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Ambigue » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:11 am

Xylou wrote:Some are speaking about "grandfathering a character"... but even after searching on the forum, I haven't found anything accurate about it.
May I ask what it means ? Thanks in advance.
"Grandfathering in" is a phrase meaning that a thing that existed before a certain law was made that prohibits its manufacture or sale is allowed to continue to be bought and sold or owned or whatever.

So.

If you have an old car manufactured before certain emissions standards were made, you can get it "grandfathered in" as an antique. It can still be bought or sold or owned, but new ones of that standard can't be made anymore.

If you have a class that's been grandfathered, like Favored Soul, you can still play those characters that you made while the class was available, but no new ones will be allowed.

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flower
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by flower » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:24 am

But everyone was aware the haste speed on kensai was there originally only to undone movement speed penalty for armour.

Only several months back kensai got full haste. And as with all changes you knew all it can change (as the kensai got several updates prior or after that!).

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Xylou
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Xylou » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:17 pm

Thank you Ambigue for the explanation ; I was wondering if a "grandfathered character" was still playable or not... now I know !

By curiosity, if the Kensai isn't allowed to use magic, why is he now allowed to drink potions ? Is it in order to make this path less weak / easier to play ?
I've read they were allowed to use some scrolls (Raise Dead, Resurrection, Lesser Restoration, Restoration and Greater Restoration) and I've thought it was for gameplay reasons. Is it the same with potions ?

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Lorkas
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Lorkas » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:22 pm

In terms of lore, potions don't require any magical effort at all, while wands, scrolls, and actively-cast spells do.

In terms of game balance, it was too make them less terrible.

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Re: Kensai Update

Post by CragOrion » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 pm

This ruins my Wally West Flash joke character, how dare you....take back your possibility to get higher ac and more attacks now, i just wanna go faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast!

(seriously, it might take a little more effort, but it can be an improvement if you let it, also, doesn't this thread belong in the Feedback section?)


Also, QFT
flower wrote:haste speed on kensai was there originally only to undo movement speed penalty for armour.

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Opustus
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Opustus » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:27 pm

In terms of lore, you could say that your character has taken a vow to abstain from magic use entirely due to its precarious and destructive nature. Magic can be a controversial topic in some corners of Faerun and a character can seek to live magicless or to "abolish" magic itself. She could have undergone rituals to make her body repel magic, but then again, you can say that having the spell diluted into a potion makes it less harmful and bearable in small doses (totally stole that from Witcher).
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

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Lorkas
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Lorkas » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:53 pm

(seriously, it might take a little more effort, but it can be an improvement if you let it, also, doesn't this thread belong in the Feedback section?)
It departed a little from the OP, but probably it should've gone into Q&A originally. I'll move it there just for housekeeping purposes.

Kaymon24
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Kaymon24 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:27 pm

Barbarians are unhealthy too in that sense.

Astral
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Re: Kensai Update

Post by Astral » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:55 pm

Black Wendigo wrote:I built a char based on kensai being hasted. Removing that and all movement speed bonus means my char is now unplayable. This was in his RP. It was in his combat style as well. And it wasn't a small thing.

I don't have a problem with changes, but I wish the devs would make up their minds what they want out of kensai and stick with it.

Arelith, unlike what it used to be years ago, is now an ever-evolving world and the mechanics of the paths, classes, etc, will keep changing. I personally DONT want anyone to make up their minds as I think it's good for the server that there's always a new meta to break down and new functions to try. I'm sorry about your hasted theme though. Remember now you can drink a haste potion and have 1 apr higher than you had before (means a flat kensai fighter with longsword can have 6 attacks hasted) so I think overall this update is a huge buff to kensai path.
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