Kensai Update

[gilescorey]

Be Cortex
Buff worthless, trap path that's actively detrimental to the mechanical power of a character
People who play that class rage at him on the forums
Still be Cortex, but also hurt and confused

[Seekeepeek]

Ouch... have to go back to lvl 24 rather then 30... -.-'

[Garveus]

Since most people seem to complain about slower Movement Rate due to loss of permanent Haste, why not just add permanent Expeditious Retreat? Or would that make Kensai too OP?

[Lorkas]

Part of the point was removing the bonus speed. I get why it's painful to lose (I find it incredibly hard to switch to alts when I'm playing a character like the old kensai, old FS/WeaveM, monks, or current feylocks that have superspeed all the time), but the path is so, so much better now than it was.

If nothing else, it's amazing not to have your best path feature be completely replicated by the entire party while travelling with someone who casts mass haste. What you have now is essentially permahaste with 2 AC instead of 4, but stackable with normal haste. That's so good guys, please stop trying to grandfather my kensai characters into the worse old version.

Thanks, Cortex, for finally giving some attention to this path--I think it has way more potential to affect the UMD meta than it did in the past, and may even start to help make Brew Potion worth taking, if it's looked at a little bit also.

[Kaymon24]

Kensai update is better for non monk builds like pure fighter etc who can only drink potions anyway but the kensai purpose was to be permahasted for the fun of being super fast all the time especially for monks which just got their purpose to play anymore taken away. Personally I think there should be some form of permahaste bonus for monks just so you can be super speed beast naturally and the builds that are already super speedy in rp circumstances just forget how to move fast anymore? Like their legs magically get sore all the time? I think the kensai was made for monks in the first place just to give that permahaste option and now it's gone. don't get my wrong I like this new update, the idea is great but permahaste has been around forever and why does it get confiscated from us now? What caused the change? If you really think that people shouldn't be perma super speedsters might as well nerf barbarians so you don't make yourselfs hippocrites. Cause people who are kensai barbs just got a massive improvement now. I am going to roll my monk kensai now because of this but there should be some option out there for monks to be fast again.

[Garveus]

Part of the point was removing the bonus speed.

I didn't know that.
Also, don't get me wrong, I actually now seriously consider making a Kensai thanks to the update, I just feel really sorry for those who were harmed by the new changes, those who prioritized their entire character concept around the idea of permanent, undispellable Haste.

Cause people who are kensai barbs just got a massive improvement now.

I think that's a good point. To be honest, I'd say Barbarian requires a slight rework, too. I also believe one of the Devs mentioned doing so is on their radar (if someone could comfirm I'm not making that up, I'd be grateful).

[Lorkas]

Monks already are the fastest in the game. I also have a kensai monk now who I built to be superspeedy but he's still faster than anyone else can be, even if they use haste. Once you hit level 18, you're faster than any non-monk can possibly be--it's written into the game code itself that any non-monks have a 150% max speed.

What's more, if they try to drink a haste potion to catch up with you, drink a haste potion or chew a guaji yourself (or both! A monk can stack haste and guaji) and you maintain the same speed advantage you had before.

Barbarian has been stated multiple times by devs to be near the top of The List.

[Irongron]

Yes, barbarian is also on the radar but that doesn't mean it will happen any time soon. My primary concern with the class is not mechanical though, but rather the underlying theme which I feel departs too heavily from what I feel barbarian is intended to represent. I have asked some devs to consider options and have one idea from artos I rather like

[Umskiptar]

Very grateful to both Cortex and Peppermint for pushing in this update. I want to play a Kensai now.

Fix Dwarven Defenders next please!

[Opustus]

I think the update on Kensai was awesome and very well considered, giving them a role by becoming the hardest hitting meleer and enabling new class combinations with Ranger, Bard, and Pally. In terms of power, the rework seems only harmful to cornersneaks who really benefit from the movement speed of haste, but then again, the full BAB attack is a GREAT bonus to the sneak attack flurry when you emerge from stealth!

I so want to see the following partnership in action: Level30 Bard and Kensai Barbarian/Fighter/WM. Heck, toss in good ole Monk/Rogue/Fighter for a fabulous trio. Has some real potential for awesome RP concepts as well!

Irongron: There are many takes on Barbarian, which is what makes it a wonderful class. The violent criminal, the uncouth brute, the very opposite of a savant. I think the only defining factor of the class is that they are "outsiders" to civilization. A man born into a noble family CAN be a barbarian, if he gives up the way of organized society to promote qualities such as self-sufficiency and freedom over a modern control of everyday life.

In sociology Emile Durkheim seperates two kinds of societies, which in common perception might be called traditional and modern, but which he has termed societies of "mechanical" and "organic solidarity". Check the chart in this wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanica ... solidarity.

It's a simplistic analysis or dichotomy of society based on western-world bias, and contemporary worlds accommodate cultures that defy the characteristics as lined in the chart, but I think at the very least it gives a good viewpoint to what a "barbarian" is, or how it can be implemented in Arelith as an archetype. In a world where "modern" has become the norm (in the sense that people live in big settlements in a money-based economy, and follow the rules stipulated by these conditions) the barbarians are the outsiders who seek alternatives and diverge. These alternatives can be seen as inferior and are actively made inferior with words like "uncultured" and "savage", which has reaped them a bad reputation, but which does not do them justice. The very purpose of a barbarian is to escape these definitions.

EDIT: Oopsie, there's also the rage, the big defining characteristic, which has to be RP'ed in some way, shape or form! Maybe they are just violent savages with primal screams?

[Ebonstar]

ok i took the night to think about this.

my current main is a faction heavy toon, and his entire storyline based around having the old kensai background as how he grew up trained etc, making him the person he is.

i can play without the speed since the extra attack counters the one gained from having the speed

my biggest complaint is this: you drop AC by removing the permahaste by 4 yet only when i asked about it was this mentioned. and it was listed as a 2AC boost in the pro aspect. That isnt a pro is a huge con.
Is there a way to remove the permahaste and leave the AC, especially since ive seen threads where people panic over 1 AC point making them so much weaker and this change took 2

and I cant see why the discipline was changed, perhaps make that a choice, do you want 10 dis or 10 listen.

[Sockss]

Before, permanent haste.

Now, if you drink a haste potion, you get all the benefits that you had before plus:

An extra attack! (1 (Kensai) + 1 haste)
An Extra 2 AC (2 (Kensai) +4(Haste pot/friendly haster) vs 4)

You cover a major weakness of, not being able to cast true seeing, if you invest some skills (listen). I Imagine this is why it was changed.

You can take ESF: Discipline for the +10, if you still want it!

[Opustus]

And now you can drink potions! +2 STR, CON, DEX, WIS, you should be salivating! Oh right, this will open a whole new market for potion magnates, AWESOMEEeee *squeals*

[Sab1]

Exactly why I think Kensai is more powerful now then it has ever been, just being able to use any potion out there is a huge boon.

[Nitro]

my biggest complaint is this: you drop AC by removing the permahaste by 4 yet only when i asked about it was this mentioned. and it was listed as a 2AC boost in the pro aspect. That isnt a pro is a huge con.
Is there a way to remove the permahaste and leave the AC, especially since ive seen threads where people panic over 1 AC point making them so much weaker and this change took 2

and I cant see why the discipline was changed, perhaps make that a choice, do you want 10 dis or 10 listen.

+2 natural AC is a huge buff, because it stacks with haste and all armour and even with barkskin according to the update notes. So if you chug a potion of haste you now have more AC and more APR than you did before. On top of that, you can now also chug a barkskin potion for even more AC on top of that.
It's also not dodge AC, like haste is, so you won't lose it from getting flat-footed.

In light of all that I can see why they switched it from Disc to Listen, an extra 10 to one of the most valuable skills on top of all of that would be too good.

[Tyrantos]

Would be cool if one could become one in game. Hint. Hint. Nudge.
For those whom wanted to play it before, like a cool guy.

[ActionReplay]

The class is really great now. Removing perma-haste means nothing. You can still be hasted through regular means (Potion, Buff, Spell etc) and still get the bonus APR and the Untyped/Natural +2 AC ON TOP of being hasted as well. Bruuuh.

[Lorkas]

Yea dudes stop trying to grandfather my character into the old inferior kensai. This one is better by far.

[Gulddrengen]

Stronger when buffed yes, but less fun for those of us who liked the kensai for its inherent speed and not having to chug down potions all the time and look like a Christmas tree like every other character we've played since 2002.

While few will understand this angle, I chose kensai so I wouldn't HAVE to slug potions. I wanted to play a character free from the magic-snorting, VFX covered, typical adventurer.

While I can see the allure of the new class, much of my impetus to play one has evaporated.

I've got plenty of magic-snorting, potion sluggers lying about to play if the urge strikes me.

[Irongron]

When I approved this update I said that for some of our players the speed would be the stand out issue, and also said what while I approve of this change (I find it has a much improved design) I would do so on only on the agreement that we would see no further changes/overhaul of this class.

Because, well for those who are affected or dissatisfied with the change its not enough for us to list the 'mechanical reasons why it is now better', because to do so would be to falsely presume they do not already know this, or well understood the limiations of the class when it was chosen, it was really only a 'trap' to those that did not fully realise the limitations it would place on them at higher levels, but that was very far from everyone.

We've seen from posters above why they chose it, it really was the ultimate 'convenience' class. It is easy for us to presume that players make their build choices based upon what offers the greatest strength, or the most utility, but there also many who simply choose what they find fun to play, and the enduring popularity of Kensai showed this to be the case. We were not awash with disgruntled players who felt that they were tricked after selecting Kensai, and there were some who chose it again and again.

I also do not feel we should dismiss the old Kensai as 'bad design', as clearly for many it was not. It was 'a' design, and now we have another, and one based upon a different set of ideals, and more in keeping with the current development direction of the server.

I've said many times that the nature of Arelith is that things do change from time to time, and we can never presume anything, be it a class mechanic, race or even settlement to remain in place indefinitely. In essence we've given our players something else to play with here, and put something else to pasture. I'm grateful to those that envisioned and created the previous path, after all it did us lead us here.

I guess I just wanted it to let it be known by those feeling let down, from the Admin Team, and myself, that their concerns or disappointment are not lost on us, or that we're wanting to duke out the costs and benefits in an effort to 'show them the light'. With a game like this there isn't often 'right' or 'wrong', 'better' or 'worse', just a question of taste. As the Creative Lead my role is to go the way I feel best, and wit the input of the dev team this is the direction we have chosen.

Kenasi won't be overhauled again, though may see some minor adjustments eventually.

[Kaymon24]

If it's going to stay like this for a long time I and many other players I would predict are ok with it. It really is a nice path to take now. Speed loss hurts but potions are a way better replacement for them now. You still pretty much get the same AC and APR and freedom and saves and can drink a haste potion to top +4 more AC and have speed given back for a few rounds so it doesn't hurt as bad as one may think. It does hurt the players who intentionally made kensai monks for speed bonus but as Irongron said, the server is changing. I just hope it stays like this for a long time in case I want to make one as a player and do and it ends up getting hit again and one of our Admins said it shouldn't so most likely won't.

[Ebonstar]

hmm maybe the speed drop can be from being ten years older ig time

[Black Wendigo]

I'm sorry but chugging a haste potion is not the same rp aa having unnatural speed (permahaste). It's a completely different char that does that.

Allowing some people to "not suck" by punishing others is not my idea of balance.

[gilescorey]

I'm sorry but chugging a haste potion is not the same rp aa having unnatural speed (permahaste). It's a completely different char that does that.

Allowing some people to "not suck" by punishing others is not my idea of balance.

i'm done

[cwilliamsuca]

Hello,

I'm going to weigh in a bit here. I am a Fighter/WM/CoT, so I come from a different perspective than most monks here. Okay, it's true that if I throw on some potions, my character is slightly better than it was as an old kensai. However I am going to make two points.

1) RP aside, chugging a haste potion is not comparable to the old kensai and that is because it only lasts one battle at most (what, 30 seconds?). I have not yet looked around for cheaper prices, but this is 200 gold per potion which is 200 gold per fight. So I feel the argument that we should be happy because we can just chug a haste potion is not valid. This seems like a scenario where I will only use a haste potion during boss battles (but it drops me out of improved expertise, so that's fun) or PvP (but it's never fun to have to start PvP by downing a potion).

2) My character is a mad DPS build, but not the best at taking a load of hits. I have always (by design) relied on my speed to give me an extra ten feet where I can run and heal a bit. This goes for both PvE and PvP. Chugging a haste potion is not useful here, because it takes me 5 seconds to do so, which will cause damage equal to what I would heal, thus defeating the purpose.

I do not think for me a re-roll is completely necessary (although might just be better), but a de-level to 22 is in my plan so that I can beef up my defenses to compensated for my loss of defensive strategy. And that's a lot of levels...