PvP Engagement

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Cerk Evermoore
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PvP Engagement

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:41 am

I find myself in a weird place, where on one hand I want to try and get maximum effect / storyline out of conflict RP by engaging in long dialog but usually it ends in folks portaling out.

What do you folks do to handle this kind of RP? I don't want to be the guy who says a couple lines of text and just murders people because I think it's terrible RP imo. But at this point I am unsure on what to do, because it seems pretty much everyone has a portal lens but I definitely know low RP killing people causes a lot of OOC problems.

How do you folks handle it?

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Giftstoff
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Giftstoff » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:56 am

IMO, someone who uses a lense silently to get out of conflict are just as bad as the guy who rp's; "you die now" and attacks.

At LEAST emote reaching for it.


That being said, there are so many factors in a good pvp/conflict rp that its really hard to put into words the "good" way to do it. It pretty much comes down to not being a cheeseball. If you're in a group of 10 fully warded epics, don't be a huge Snuggybear to the single enemy you cornered.

If you're the guy cornered, maybe roll with the rp sometime and let yourself get captured? Its a lot more fun then just portaling away if the other party has your enjoyment and RP in mind.

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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Astral » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:01 am

-ward_teleport

And in a more serious tone, I just let them port out if that their way through the situation. not my problem. *shrugs*
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-XXX-
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by -XXX- » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:00 am

If winning PvP encounters is such an integral part of your RP, something's not right.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:Never take on any task with the expecation of winning, with the idea the 'Win' will be fun.
And yes, people porting out without even the simplest emote whenever your character shows up can be percieved as a giant middle finger towards you, as it sends a clear signal that they have no desire to interact with you or your character. Whenever something like that happens to me however, I tend to ask myself the question "what could I have done wrong to inspire such behaviour in other players?" rather than jumping to the conclusion that "OMG, lame pridegamey mary suesque cheezers abuse the server rules to dodge their long deserved killbash once again!!!"

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:38 am

I'm not arguing folks right to TP out. I encourage it because I don't want to drag folks into RP they don't want to do. But like when you go out for an hour or two looking for people in the world it's kinda a drag for the people involved in "hunting" when pretty much nine out of ten people portal lens out while you are trying to engage them in RP dialog and you just have to talk to your group and explain them not to be mad and to relax and we'll find another.

But after it happens like six times it's hard to explain that to your party why you are not just laying folks out immediately.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:51 am

I don't think you can really complain about people simply stepping away if they're not buying whatever it is you're selling.

It could be any number of reasons:

- It is late night for them in RL, and they need to log off within the next few minutes so they can be capable of work the next day.
- They're trying to wrap up another RP encounter/conversation.
- They believe that the encounter would be un-fun for you if they stuck around.

The thing I often have to remind myself of, is that what my character is doing or wants, is more often that not totally irrelevent and unimportant to the characters and players I encounter, and that the game does not revolve around how my characters specifically impact upon other characters. They've got their own stuff they're doing, and that is what takes up the vast majority of their headspace.

As such, if someone chooses to take the time to roleplay with me, fight me, whatever, then I feel honoured by that. Their time is a gift they're giving to me, and not something I can demand of them. Likewise, I feel no guilt in simply stepping away from a situation - Although admittedly, I'll usually shoot someone a tell to explain why.
Last edited by Aodh Lazuli on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EnigmaticSpirit
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by EnigmaticSpirit » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:01 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote: - They believe that the encounter would be un-fun for you if they stuck around.
This is the reason I lens away from most conflict, tbh.

As I famously tell a lot of people, consider not what they did, but why.


Black Wendigo
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Black Wendigo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:17 pm

Portaling out is perfectly legitimate in my eyes. There is nothing wrong with opting out of a PVP situation, especially when it feels like people are trying to set up the RP to end that way (and you don't like that). It's one of many options.

Please don't look on this as rage quitting: which is an entirely different thing. Some people are les or more inclined to PVP than others.

Sab1
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Sab1 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:04 pm

Not to judge or anything, as I may of misunderstood what you are saying, but it sounds like you are going about looking for pvp. If that's the case it's not uncommon for many to try and flee if they get the feeling you are simply looking to kill them regardless of the rp occurring. If it's clear this person has the intent to murder me, why would I just stand about and wait for this guy to try and kill me?

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flower
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by flower » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:52 pm

Or people simple are not interested in a pvp, even so with a whole group?

Nivar2009
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Nivar2009 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:09 pm

The other day my surface character was in the underdark, when suddenly a 2 to 3 underdark characters went red on him. I imagine they were role playing hunting him. The thing is I did not know the players, so I did not trust them. My character went to the next area and used a lens. This is a cooperative game not competitive, too many players turn very competitive in pvp scenarios.

Now if one of those players had sent me a tell saying, "We know your character is down here we are going to hunt for you." I would have been happy to lead them on a merry chase with perhaps some pvp. However, I am not going to chance pvp with players I do not trust to role play an encounter, I will probably always have my characters escape a scene I do not trust.

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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by pigman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:21 pm

Nivar2009 wrote:The other day my surface character was in the underdark, when suddenly a 2 to 3 underdark characters went red on him. I imagine they were role playing hunting him. The thing is I did not know the players, so I did not trust them. My character went to the next area and used a lens. This is a cooperative game not competitive, too many players turn very competitive in pvp scenarios.

Now if one of those players had sent me a tell saying, "We know your character is down here we are going to hunt for you." I would have been happy to lead them on a merry chase with perhaps some pvp. However, I am not going to chance pvp with players I do not trust to role play an encounter, I will probably always have my characters escape a scene I do not trust.

Unless I am mistaken, your character reacting to being hostiled having not yet met those players is OOC metagaming. I could bery well be wrong though

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Dreams
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Dreams » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:32 pm

I think it really just comes down to the particular situation. It seems to be more appropriate in some instances than others, but at the end of the day: It's an IC action. If the character would try to escape this way, then that's fine. The default view should always be that an action has been taken due to IC reasons.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:19 pm

Unless I am mistaken, your character reacting to being hostiled having not yet met those players is OOC metagaming. I could bery well be wrong though
This is true.
This too shall pass.

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Nivar2009
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Nivar2009 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:51 pm

Being hostiled and chased after fully buffing without any role play at all is meta gaming. Noticing this sudden change in behavior in character is not meta gaming it is reading a situation turning hostile, and choosing to exit. WYSIWYG, if someone suddenly buffs up and starts coming at you without a word, in character I would say you have every right to exit stage left.

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Xanos950
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Xanos950 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:01 pm

It's WYSISWG. But you can't properly rp things due to the engine.

If somebody hostiles you, then your character WOULD probably notice that. Unless they're a trained assassin or whatever, you would definitely see some gleeful bloodlust coming your way, or a cold deadly glare. That's how i would react to being hostiled at least. You don't just somebody from 0-100.

There would be a change of demeanor before somebody attack you (That's what hostiling means). And you should be able to pick up on that.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:13 pm

I mostly started this thread so I could be more familiar with what folks considered /cheeseball./ This is not me complaining about people using portal lenses because they have a right to their own storyline and shouldn't be forced to interact with me.

I am just trying to follow Arelith's Be Nice rule and am just unsure what to do exactly when it comes to starting engagements.

Please keep discussion on topic of possible.

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RamblerTeo
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by RamblerTeo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:23 pm

say that the weak should fear the strong


hostile while they're responding

????



your corpse has been picked up
your corpse has been dropped
your corpse has been destroyed

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:40 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, your character reacting to being hostiled having not yet met those players is OOC metagaming. I could bery well be wrong though
This is true.

DM quotes, no your not allowed to pick up on that without it being RP'd

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Ork
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:41 pm

This is a collaborative game and your storyline isn't always in your own hands - which is how it's suppose to be.

People that portal sans considerable RP are the people I tend to avoid. Sure if you sent me a tell saying "sorry gotta run" I'd be cool with that, but if you're just leaving cause you're uninteresting in what I am presenting in the game.. maybe it's better off you wimp out. I'd rather not RP with you too, bub.

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Ambigue
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Ambigue » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:04 pm

I am not a big fan of PvP on the server as most of my experiences with it basically went like this:
"You are a guy in another faction I hate that's 20 levels lower than me"

die instantly.

IF> Respawn
THEN> OMG U R CHEESING OUT

IF> Wait for them to resurrect my dude
THEN> torture RP, or being locked in the faction's prison, or something else that basically precludes me from playing that character for a while.


Logging off, ignoring it, or anything else meant I was "Not RPing properly" and I ended up getting yelled at. It wasn't fun, it wasn't anything that I was asked to participate in, and it took all my agency away. I hated it. It wasn't about losing, so much as being expected to waste half my day doing nothing so that someone else could have fun. It was entirely at my expense in terms of time if nothing else. So, that's what I expect to deal with whenever some level 30 ultimonster goes hostile on my mid-teens-level character.

However, there have been rare times when folks have messaged me saying "Hey, this is going go pvp, how do you want to handle it?" or "Hey, you're in the area and we're doing a surface raid, mind being our quarry?" or something similar.

That's fantastic. It respects my time. It asks me to participate in the scene rather than basically just hijacking my day so someone else can get off on how powerful/evil their dude is.

So...do that. Send someone a message and see how they want to do things. Get them engaged. Let them figure out if they've got the time for something fun or or if they just want to get things over with so they can move on. If they portal out the minute you send the message, then, yeah, that's cheesy, but at least you gave them a shot and it's likely would have happened the moment you turned hostile anyway.

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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Xerah » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:18 pm

Part of the problem is a lot of people view OOC talk like that as terrible and the worst thing ever.

I have no idea why.

I'm in complete agreement with you though. You'll find me (and many others) much more receptive if we have a discussion first.
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Hin_Priestess
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Hin_Priestess » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:07 pm

Not everyone likes PvP... And too many have been the victim of a barely-RPed three-liner by a level 20+ attacker who wanted to fight level 12s. Then got Hostiled. Stunned. Two-shot killed.

I don't think this applies to the initial question, but it does give context to the root of the matter.

Most of the PvPers I come across, want only to dominate, put you into some dark RP, and brag. I've only come across two that whispered me after my character died, on if I wanted that RP route. So here is my reason to why people Port out:

PvPers (not all, so don't take offense if this doesn't apply to you), abuse the system by playing in that shade of grey that says a legit RP took place (RPed 2-3 lines before Smackdown Time). A few lines of dialogue is a cheat IMO.

Conflict RP is good, but PvP isn't the root of Conflict RP. And that's a lesson many PvPers I've come across, don't seem to learn.

They pop out fully warded, see you warding. Say one line to make you stop leveling the field. Then BAM! They hostile and gank you. Because they don't care about RP or an even playing field. They want to win.

I don't think there is a way to stop people from portalling out though. Too many bad experiences trigger-happy PvPers, is the root of why many don't want to play a PvP scenario. And you can't blame them.

I'm sorry many of your targets have not been receptive to your PvP conclusions though, I really am. In the end, I don't think calling people bad RPers for portalling out, and bad RPers for going after low-levels will solve the problem.

But I think being considerate is an important step. Some don't like PvP. Many like Conflict RP though. If someone scampers from the field, it's their choice. PvPers? Whispering someone: "Hey, are you cool with ___ RP after this session?"

That should happen more often, I think. More so after you've won the PvP match (so as not to metagame). This way the victims can Opt-in or Out of whatever dark RP comes after their defeat.

Sorry for my tangent. Hope this answered your question.
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Sockss
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Sockss » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:14 pm

I don't really see the problem with it.

If you know the character, or know people who know of the character, then most of the time fleeing is more damaging than being PK'd - and likely better for your own reputation!

Additionally, lenses do not work in combat, if you're in an obvious hostile situation and someone does something mechanically, you're (akaik) well within your right to initiate combat.

However, if someone's /roleplaying/ reaching for a lens and then uses it, I'd let them do it - as it's obvious they don't want to play along, which is fine.
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Re: PvP Engagement

Post by Durvayas » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:25 pm

Generally speaking, whether or not my PC sticks around is dependent on a few things; How outnumbered is my PC, is there a snowballs chance in hell I can win this fight?, can I expect a fun RP encounter to come of this?, Do I know this player and their PvP proclivities.

I know players where I know, win or lose, its gonna be a good time, so I don't flee.
I also know players where I know that I'm only going to get a single line of RP off before they kill and then bash, and so I lense.
Lastly, I know players who build specifically for PvP, and while they're grand in that respect, as that is their element, I also know that the RP before the PvP is a formality for them, and that no matter what is said, their intent is to kill and then bash my PC. The RP may be great and they may be good sports, but the end is a forgone conclusion, and I'll play along as far as I see their being a point before my PC attempts to flee via lense.

If its clear my PC is going to be bashed after the fight, as for a bounty or over a grudge(and the assailant is a 3rd party basher), I'm not going to give you the time of day unless I'm reasonably sure I can win. I don't see the point. It feels like I'm about to be flexed on, and have to eat 2 or more hours of my precious time with my PC being mechanically useless.

I don't give advance warnings anymore before lensing. I used to.
About half the time I've given people advance warning in tells that my PC was going to flee, my PCs have been attacked early specifically to prevent the lense from firing. I've made it my policy to type out a pose about pulling out the lense and cracking it but not hitting enter, using the lense, and firing off the pose before my PC vanishes. This takes about two seconds, and the pose only comes after I've navigated the conversation and just before I vanish. If I do this to you, it means I don't trust you or someone in your party to make things fun, and I've no interest in the facade you(or the person in your party) call roleplay to satisfy the rules before killing my PC. If I do this to you, you are welcome to send me a tell asking for clarification on the why.

Generally, the easiest way to make me lense with little to no roleplay is as follows.
  • Roll up on my PC in a group warded to the teeth(3 seems to be the magic number).
  • Caste haste on yourself during tense conversation without first hostiling.
  • Hostile as soon as you see my character.
  • Hostile well before the conversation becomes threatening(known as sucker punch PvP).
  • Bash my character after a previous PvP engagement in which you did one of the former beforehand
If I'm the victor in a PvP situation 9 times out of 10 I will not bash your corpse after a win unless you fit the following criteria.
  • My PC is a third party basher and I'm basically an assassin acting outside the broken assassin's guild(The bash is only so I have proof of the kill).
  • My PC was sent to capture yours but you used -unrelent, forcing me to kill you.
  • I haven't the piety to raise your PC and you don't plan on staying online long enough to be raised manually at an altar.
  • My drow is on a raid and I don't have the piety to raise your PC for capture RP(even if you wanted it) and holding onto your corpse would make my PC encumbered. Sorry, I'm not happy about it either, thats just how the mechanics work now, and a raider who is stuck at a walk is a dead one.
  • You are a player I would normally lense on if the odds were not in my favor. Just because I knew I could/would win, does not magically make me want to continue roleplay with you. I'm not a saint, and some of you aren't worth RPing with if it can be avoided, even in victory.
In closing, I don't use -notells. You can always reach out to me in tells prior to or after a fight or escape, as the case may be.
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