Scimitar vs Longsword

[Durandal]

What makes scimitar so much better? Is it really just because of the crit range? Is it better to take focus in scimitar over longsword for damage? Can I have proof pls?

[gilescorey]

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Threat_range

all the proof you'll ever need

[Peppermint]

Think of it this way.

The longsword averages one more damage per hit (i.e. average of 4.5 on a d8 vs 3.5 on a d6). Early game, when that and your strength modifier of +4 or so is all you've got, that seems pretty meaningful. 8.5 damage vs. 7.5 damage is a noticeable difference.

But late game, the longsword's base damage doesn't scale. Most of your damage comes from modifiers such as strength, enhancement bonuses, essences, and weapon specialization. When you're doing roughly 40 points of damage per attack, one more point just doesn't seem that meaningful. Ergo, anything that can multiply the damage you're already doing is a lot stronger.

If you'd like, have a pretty graph. Numbers are somewhat arbitrary, but the same strength/enhancement/feats have been used for both weapons. You can edit the graph to see the exact values I used.

[Aero Silver]

If you'd like, have a pretty graph. Numbers are somewhat arbitrary, but the same strength/enhancement/feats have been used for both weapons. You can edit the graph to see the exact values I used.

Your explanation is very useful. But now that the graph you created shows Sneak Attack for the longsword but not for the scimitar. Is that intentional?

[Catchup]

That's accurate. The actual difference is a bit higher.

[Baron Saturday]

If you'd like, have a pretty graph. Numbers are somewhat arbitrary, but the same strength/enhancement/feats have been used for both weapons. You can edit the graph to see the exact values I used.

Your explanation is very useful. But now that the graph you created shows Sneak Attack for the longsword but not for the scimitar. Is that intentional?

As long as the value in Sneak Attack % is 0, the value in Sneak Attack doesn't matter. It actually puts in a value of 1d6 by default.

Here's a graph assumming a WM with Overwhelming Crit. As you can see, the damage difference gets fairly significant. It would get larger with, say, essences and more strength and keen and haste.

[Lorkas]

FYI, better to use 20 BAB for your calculations in that calculator, because it doesn't stop the attacks-per-round progression at level 20 like it should.

The difference between scimitar and long sword is not so great that it can't be overcome by differences in weapon availability on the server. For example, if you're a longsword WM and manage to get a lesser moonblade and use the runic property to add +1d4 damage (after adding a +4 essence, of course), then you're better off than you would be using a masterly damask scimitar (+4 essence damage) with equivalent scimitar feats.

Lesser moonblade vs. MD Scimitar

That doesn't even consider the extra bonus vs. Undead.

And for completeness, here's general crit-immune enemies.

[gilescorey]

Don't use the buttons on the afterlife grapher aside from haste, it has all kinds of weird quirks if you do. Type everything in manually. If you want proof, compare the two; one with button and one manual.

[Lorkas]

I just notice two things that it's doing incorrectly: it's adding only 1d6 for overwhelming critical, and it's adding only +4 if you have WS and EWS.

[gilescorey]

It also multiplies sneak attack damage, iirc. It's really bugged for doing a lot of things.

[Peppermint]

Yep, I don't use that calculator for much for that reason. But pretty graphs!

[Durandal]

If I use a longsword then I will always be worse then someone with a scimitar?

[Baron Saturday]

Mathematically, yes. But we will love you for your style.

[Xerah]

Style points always cover damage per round gap.

[Lorkas]

If I use a longsword then I will always be worse then someone with a scimitar?

Not if you're any elf or half-elf. Use a lesser moonblade.

[pigman]

Go 23 fighter for a +5 keen moonblade correct? Probably not optimal for pvp but for pve would be quite powerful

[Lorkas]

That's accurate. If you take that many fighter levels you're either passing on UMD or passing on WM levels.

I would actually suggest 25 fighter / 5 WM is better if you were considering 23 fighter / 7 WM. All other things being equal, the 25 fighter / 5 WM would do noticeably less damage against crit-susceptible lower-AC targets, but would do better damage against anything crit immune and against higher-AC targets, but the 25/5 build picks up an extra +3 AC and +1 discipline from just 2 more fighter levels, plus whatever you get from the extra epic fighter bonus feat at level 24. As a side-perk you can also pierce the DR of dragonshapers as well.

25 fighter / 5 rogue would be servicable also. It would have lower damage in PvE against things that are crit immune, though the 3d6 sneak attack damage closes that gap significantly when you're actually getting sneaks, but it wouldn't sacrifice the tumble AC or UMD versatility.

[Aodh Lazuli]

That's accurate. If you take that many fighter levels you're either passing on UMD or passing on WM levels.

If you take 23 fighter levels, you are a paladin.

[Durandal]

I don't really want to take a 23 fighter levels just to use a longsword, I guess I'll just conform to the rest of the server and use an ugly scimitar. Thanks for the feedback though.

[Lorkas]

You can also make using a longsword work if you let go of the idea that your character has to be perfectly optimal in order to be worth playing.

I and many others have played plenty of characters that don't use scimitars, rapiers, kukris, or scythes. They aren't bad, they're just a little less powerful under certain circumstances.

[flower]

Unless you plan going one on one in pvp it is pointless. In PVE it does not matter, and when you travel in groups the difference will be insignificant.

[Cortex]

Unless you plan going one on one in pvp it is pointless. In PVE it does not matter, and when you travel in groups the difference will be insignificant.

You say that, but I'll tell you what. It felt veeery inappropriate when a Blackguard scim build was doing as much damage as my longsword WM.

[flower]

And? It depends what you aim for, if just playing and enjoy the game or comparing math with other (perhaps bulit to power builds). It is about what everyone expects from the game.

[gilescorey]

longsword

you deserve everything you got, plebeian

[WhiskeyGuy]

I have looked at the graphs, and I don't see this "significant" difference. In the end, they are actually similar. Someone said, the longsword's base damage doesn't scale... unless I am gravely mistaken, neither does the scimitar?

Okay... here's some math I figured out a long time ago to calculate weapon differences. It's not against any AC, just weapon potential damage.

(20+ (20-Weapon crit range #)) (base damage+ extras + STR mod)/20= potential damage
For a WM
(20+ 2(20-crit range#)) ((base damage+ extras + STR mod)/20= potential damage

To keep it simple, let's use a masterly Damask version and 38 STR, along with Improved Critical

Non WM longsword:
(20+(20-17)(8+6+14)/20=32.2

Non WM scimi:
(20+(20-15)(6+6+14)/20=32.5

Some might argue that is a huge difference, but, it's not. Also, keep in mind this is against 0 AC, so... the crit chance is exactly what the weapon states, rather than going against high AC and getting less confirmed criticals. Also, keep in mind this is potential damage for 1 hit, not taking into account APR and sneak attacks or any additional critical hit damage modifiers.

For longsword with WM:
(20+2(20-15)(8+6+14)/20=42 (the answer to the universe)

For Scimitar with WM:
(20+2(20-13)(6+6+14)/20=44.2

So... is a scimitar better? Well, so long as you are fighting something you can get a crit on according to your percentage, yes. As that starts to drop, so does the difference. Keep in mind, the differences shown are under ABSOLUTELY optimal conditions, which don't actually exist ingame as nothing has 0 AC.

I'm sure some will find fault in my numbers, but, that formula gives a good indication of a weapon's possibility.

Hope this helps.

P.S. There is no way I would choose one over the other based on power alone. It's a roleplay decision, and sometimes longsword is right, sometimes it's scimitar, then again, sometimes, it's a katana (which is better than a scimi by the way at 45 for WM's)

Have a great day roleplayers!