Latest Spellsword Change

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Maladus
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Maladus » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:20 am

Too bad this isn't 5E...proficiency for the win.

Nemain
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nemain » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:28 am

I'm playing another of those dex spellswords, similar to Iceborn: 20 int planned (with the last int point somewhere in my epic wizard bonus feats), mostly dex, 23 wiz / 4 fighter (3 of which I already took by lvl 6)/ 3 possibly rogue tumble dump.

Electric imbue felt okay for the very first few levels, where 1 (if saved) - 5 hp / mob out of a whole spawn was rewarding enough, but the only imbue that feels worth -really- using throughout it all is negative energy. Mind you: damage, AC and AB wise I'm (at lvl 6) at a worse place than any other equal geared melee: I have a hard time landing my hits, and when I do, the enemies that are worth hunting make their saves more often than not. Which is fine. The extra negative energy damage and survability from all that sweet vamp regen would be just too strong otherwise. At least, for the early levels.

Changing the int AC so it's no longer flatfoot fodder and making the imbues scale better in their secondary effects as has been previously mentioned, would be a very welcome change: there's all these very different effects that'd be great to use, if only they were worth sacrificing the negative energy imbue for.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:06 pm

Nemain wrote:I'm playing another of those dex spellswords, [..] mostly dex, 23 wiz / 4 fighter (3 of which I already took by lvl 6)/ 3 possibly rogue tumble dump.

[..]Mind you: damage, AC and AB wise I'm (at lvl 6) at a worse place than any other equal geared melee: I have a hard time landing my hits, and when I do, the enemies that are worth hunting make their saves more often than not. [..]
You may be suffering a little more than you ought to. To have some of the spellsword bonuses (AB/APR) you need to have more levels in wizard (spellsword) than any other class.

This means that you're 1 AB less than you could have at that level if you had gone 4/3 wizard fighter instead. It's only 1, but at that level it has a more significant impact.

You're AC should be equal to or better than an equivalent dex melee build though. (You have access to shield/mage armour in addition to your normal dex AC and your dex is likely to be 2 points less than a dex melee build?)

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nemain » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Kirito wrote:
Well, good thing the AB loss will be rectified with the next wiz level, then!

I haven't been able to compare with other dex builds' AC, though it's true that I'm sitting at 18 (20 with gear) dex. For the most part, Shield just isn't up throughout the dungeon because I lack the levels to make it last long enough to last through to the next rest, yet. Imbue armor's nice for making ghostly visage count, however- and I expect other short lived (ghostly is, at such low lvls) buffs to take to it just as well.

I've noticed my weapon imbues aren't wearing off on rest since they were left on during a server reset, nor are they stripped with -dispel. For the time being, this is working in my favor (not doing anything with those spell slots anyways, to avoid abusing a possible bug) since I gotta spend less time preparing for a fight, but GMW and flame weapon can't be applied on an imbued weapon, right? Is there any way to manually clear an imbue, other than dropping and picking a weapon back up?

As for the epic spells other than EMA... I've been number crunching, and my specific build looks too feat starved to fit more of those spells in, but for the sake of argument and build flexibility.... How about making it so a Spellsword taking those epic spells.... Gets epic imbues based on the spells, instead of the spell itself?

A greater ruin imbued weapon could deal extra unsoakable damage and apply a breach on crit for example, a hellball could deal damage to nearby enemies like electric imbue currently does, and apply KD on crit. Or, maybe taking hellball wouldn't imbue anything at all, but simply allow the Spellsword to imbue twice the spells they could otherwise? I'm no good at theorycrafting nor balancing, so won't go further into that, but... If epic spells are a no go, maybe other cookies based on them could be an "oh yeah".

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by yellowcateyes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:58 pm

Nemain wrote:I haven't been able to compare with other dex builds' AC, though it's true that I'm sitting at 18 (20 with gear) dex.
Part of your issues here might be gearing. When it comes to accessories, it's better to think of the spellsword as stat-dependant melee rather than as a wizard.

Low level wizards can generally get away with neglecting their gear, funneling all their gold into scrolls instead while the scaling properties of their conjurations handle the difficulty curve.

A DEX melee doesn't have that luxury. Filling all of your slots with AC/DEX should be your first priority. In the spellsword's case, the only AC slot you need is boots - the rest is handled with scaling Mage Armor. At this point, you should be working on filling the rest of your slots with at least a +1 DEX item.

This is fairly easy to do even without an enchanter friend, even easier if you have a Magic deity that saves you if you roll unluckily.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:02 pm

Nemain wrote:
Kirito wrote:
I've noticed my weapon imbues aren't wearing off on rest since they were left on during a server reset, nor are they stripped with -dispel. For the time being, this is working in my favor (not doing anything with those spell slots anyways, to avoid abusing a possible bug) since I gotta spend less time preparing for a fight, but GMW and flame weapon can't be applied on an imbued weapon, right? Is there any way to manually clear an imbue, other than dropping and picking a weapon back up?
Any temp property doesn't wear off on rest after you log out (until their timer is up), it's just the way of the server ;) (ie don't worry about it). Similarly, imbue (along with things like magic vestament) aren't targetable by dispel because the effects are on items rather than on the person (this is a general NWN thing)

Currently the only way to clear weapon imbue properties is to drop them/pick them up/give them away. and you should be able to put 1 other temp property (say GMW) before you imbue your weapon (but it wont work after)

As for the epic spells other than EMA... I've been number crunching, and my specific build looks too feat starved to fit more of those spells in, but for the sake of argument and build flexibility.... How about making it so a Spellsword taking those epic spells.... Gets epic imbues based on the spells, instead of the spell itself?

A greater ruin imbued weapon could deal extra unsoakable damage and apply a breach on crit for example, a hellball could deal damage to nearby enemies like electric imbue currently does, and apply KD on crit. Or, maybe taking hellball wouldn't imbue anything at all, but simply allow the Spellsword to imbue twice the spells they could otherwise? I'm no good at theorycrafting nor balancing, so won't go further into that, but... If epic spells are a no go, maybe other cookies based on them could be an "oh yeah".
Hmm, that's an interesting idea... I like it... The spells are selectable at the moment, they'll just fail to cast.... and that's easy to get them allowable only to imbue. Shall ponder more on that!

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:23 pm

Imbue weapons has been updated, check out the wiki for the updates http://wiki.arelith.com/Spellsword

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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:19 pm

Testing the new imbues.
Using Acid Splash, it's only triggering once, and not once per round.
Do Cantrips count as tier 0 imbue or is it a bug?
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nemain » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:30 pm

Speaking from the lower levels and without proper knowledge of how the higher level content will make this feel.... I'm loving the change!

Having a will based DC among the Spellsword arsenal allows for changing imbues depending on our target. Also, the tier AND sellsword lvl based DC + effects make it more and more worth getting to those higher spell levels.

The negative energy imbue deals less damage and heals less now in lower levels... But it's become more useful than before, actually: with a better scaling DC, it can land far mmore often than before, making overall more of a difference throughout a dungeon.

Same thing goes for electric imbue (other one I've tried): lightning doesn't strike -everything- anymore, but with a higher DC, it's already a more noticeable and worthwhile spawn thinner, compared to before.

The ability to imbue from scrolls feels in a good position aswell: we don't get the full DC and effects a higher lvl spellsword would, but at the same time, they are a worthwhile purchase: a different kind of supplies to keep in mind for our adventuring needs.

@Iceborn, Sorry, it appears I can't do basic math and should put on the dunce hat.
Last edited by Nemain on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kirito
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:34 pm

Iceborn wrote:Testing the new imbues.
Using Acid Splash, it's only triggering once, and not once per round.
Do Cantrips count as tier 0 imbue or is it a bug?
Odd, as in just a single charge? - or a single effect.

They might be tier 0 (althought I thought they came in as tier 1) - oversight/bug - will check :)

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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:47 pm

I mean as in, deals damage once along the hit, but nothing the next round or the third. (In the case they fail the save, that is. Other than the bugs, I'm loving these changes).

Nema, do you want a 10% weigh enchantment and a description on your dunce hat? :P
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liver and bones
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by liver and bones » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:04 pm

I like this change. Though I'll miss the 15 heal, the new scaling does make it feel like you're getting more powerful over time while also putting better emphasis on using those higher level spells.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:16 pm

So metamagic adds in to the equation for the imbuing? As in the example:
Xd4 is Wizard level/5 + 1*Imbue Tier. A level 20 Spellsword using a stilled Acid Fog (Spell level 7, tier 3), would gain an imbue of 1d12 Acid and an Acid Burn of 7d4, at DC 34 Fort.
So, you could use say a maximized ice-storm to get a t3 cold imbue on your weapon?

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Note that Acid Fog is a level 6 spell originally. It's literally answered in the same example that you quoted.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Ozzy.nl » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:21 pm

That at least means that more spells can be used in tier 3 form. Yat still a shame some elements are missing from tier 3.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:22 pm

Iceborn wrote:Note that Acid Fog is a level 6 spell originally. It's literally answered in the same example that you quoted.
Woops, missed the sentence right below it.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:23 pm

Ozzy.nl wrote:That at least means that more spells can be used in tier 3 form. Yat still a shame some elements are missing from tier 3.
Assuming you have metamagic, now you can have imbues of all tiers.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Ozzy.nl » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:26 pm

I only have still spel my self but even that gives more options then before. Now all I can't get is ice element on tier 3. But honestly I have not used ice a lot. I use magic fire and negative a lot. And in some situations sonic when facing a lot of casters.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:40 pm

Do multiple effects of the same imbue from different sources stack on the same enemy? Like if I dual-wield two weapons imbued with ice, does that take away two attacks, or just refresh the duration on the one?

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:43 pm

As far as I'm aware, the effects never stack on themselves. So if you are dual-wielding, it is convenient to use a combination of immediate and debuff effects, but never the same unless you -really- want the elemental damage.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Nemain » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Iceborn wrote:Nema, do you want a 10% weigh enchantment and a description on your dunce hat? :P
It's okay, I've got it custom crafted just for this!

Properly on the thread, however... I wonder how dual wielding would work. Aren't spellswords very feat starved?

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:08 pm

Iceborn wrote:I mean as in, deals damage once along the hit, but nothing the next round or the third. (In the case they fail the save, that is. Other than the bugs, I'm loving these changes).

Nema, do you want a 10% weigh enchantment and a description on your dunce hat? :P
That sounds like they're coming in as Tier 0 in that case. Probably wasn't a problem and due to how things were previous must have just appeared as Tier 1 for some bits!

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:11 pm

Nitro wrote:Do multiple effects of the same imbue from different sources stack on the same enemy? Like if I dual-wield two weapons imbued with ice, does that take away two attacks, or just refresh the duration on the one?
They would just refresh the durations

(Thanks for fielding all the questions Iceborn :) )

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:12 pm

More or less. I'm playing a dual-wielder, and I'm blowing three feats into it that I wish I could be using elsewhere.
The thing that spellswords have over other mages is that they are less rewarded for taking Spell Focus feats, so you can take all the magic you need from your wizard levels, instead of blowing general feats into them.

In fact, at very low level, dual-wielding and two-handing works better than having the offhand free, since you won't have +3 AC until level 12. Your offhand empty is wasted damage potential.


Kirito, are you gonna change those to tier 1 or leave them as tier 0? (Please make them tier 1. I don't want to update the wiki table xD)
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:15 pm

Iceborn wrote:More or less. I'm playing a dual-wielder, and I'm blowing three feats into it that I wish I could be using elsewhere.
The thing that spellswords have over other mages is that they are less rewarded for taking Spell Focus feats, so you can take all the magic you need from your wizard levels, instead of blowing general feats into them.

In fact, at very low level, dual-wielding and two-handing works better than having the offhand free, since you won't have +3 AC until level 12. Your offhand empty is wasted damage potential.


Kirito, are you gonna change those to tier 1 or leave them as tier 0? (Please make them tier 1. I don't want to update the wiki table xD)
Depends where the issue was... i'd expected them to be tier 1, so unless it's something uncorrectable - should be all good

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