Latest Spellsword Change

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AllTheWorld
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Latest Spellsword Change

Post by AllTheWorld » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:28 am

Does having a 2-hr weapon count as having the off-hand free for the purpose of the INT AC increases?
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Lorkas
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Lorkas » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:44 am

ActionReplay wrote:The bonus dodge AC is reduced to 1 plus 1 per 6 levels (AC 1 at lvl 1, AC2 at lvl6, AC3 at lvl 12 etc) and is only gained IF the offhand is empty (no shield/two handed weapon/bow)

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:51 am

How does that interact with the bastard sword and the -twohand combination?

Kirito
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:46 am

Probably wrongly at the moment... enjoy it whilst it lasts ;)

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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:04 pm

I thought that the changes were devastating and spellswords would suck. I did some math, they are probs okay now - at least in epics.

Anyway. Questions:
Can they summon their familiar? (Please tell me they can)
Can they use cross-class summoning abilities? (PM undead, BG fiends, SD shadow, etc)
Does the new AC still use int as modifier?
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Kirito
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:28 pm

Iceborn wrote:I thought that the changes were devastating and spellswords would suck. I did some math, they are probs okay now - at least in epics.

Anyway. Questions:
Can they summon their familiar? (Please tell me they can)
Can they use cross-class summoning abilities? (PM undead, BG fiends, SD shadow, etc)
Does the new AC still use int as modifier?
Yes
No
Yes (BASE INT mod so 30th level wizard needs 22 INT to get the full +6 AC.

Which particular change did you think would devastate spellswords?

The AC for spellswords is generally better now at lower levels, evens out at mid and is worse at high epic.

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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:50 pm

The AC change, actually.
They could cap the dodge at 20 before, with a nifty +14 int bonus, AND they would still get the shield and shield AC. Which is +4 to +8. Now they get a choppy AC bonus, which is disabled if they use a shield. That's basically dropping from +20 to +6.

Why only -base- int counts toward the new AC, though?
Kirito wrote: Yes (BASE INT mod so 30th level wizard needs 22 INT to get the full +6 AC.
Actually, isn't the full bonus +7?
I thought it was wizard level/6+1, so 7 at 30.
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Lorkas
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Lorkas » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:16 pm

The best spellsword builds will still stick to 20 base INT, since the best spellsword builds still have to multiclass and thus won't get the full AC benefit. Ultimately it's still better to use a shield, since the spellsword could get +6 AC out of an addy tower shield, and probably only +4 AC from INT if they went 23 levels.

Personally I'd prefer the AC work as it used to (full INT mod as Dodge AC) but make it work like monk WIS AC: it's lost if they use a shield or armor.

Here's why: I posted a 23 spellsword / 4 fighter / 3 rogue build that gets 68 AC without improved expertise, 41 AB, and 48 damage per hit. So AC/AB/damage is godly/lowish/high. Now the same build would lose 10 AC (it's still better AC-wise to wear the shield) but be able to benefit from Dodge AC sources again, like bard song.

Ultimately though, the old spellsword was still clearly best STR based, and the new spellsword is still clearly best STR based.

If the AC bonus was large but didn't work with a shield, then the same build I mentioned before could choose either STR or DEX, which makes the choice look like this:

Image

That is to say, rather than the godly/low/high (AC/AB/damage) build that was possible before, you could choose to be STR and go high/low/high or DEX and be godly/low/mid. That opens up the build landscape a little bit so that not all (good) spellswords look quite as similar as they can be expected to now.

The STR build above is already possible in the current implementation, but reverting it and changing it to work like monk WIS AC with respect to armor/shield would open the possibility for the second build, which looks fun to me despite being lower damage.

Currently it's possible to go DEX of course to avoid the armor/shield pre-battle dance that battlebards already do, but it achieves only 2 more AC than the STR build can at the expense of a 23% reduction in damage output (to put it another way, it has damage that is 2.75 Epic Weapon Specializations lower in exchange for AC that is higher by 1 Armor Skin).

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:36 pm

^ More or less what they said. Dodge AC is incredibly tempermental as well, and you'll find yourself loosing it far more often than you will shield AC bonuses, making it far less reliable. The growth is rather in comparison to other, more readily avaliable options for AC. I can grab a large shield at level 1 and it will give me the same AC as a level 6 spellsword? An unenchanted tower shield is the same as a level 12 spellsword? By the time I hit level 12, i've probably gotten ahold of a mithril shield or better.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:08 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:^ More or less what they said. Dodge AC is incredibly tempermental as well, and you'll find yourself loosing it far more often than you will shield AC bonuses, making it far less reliable. The growth is rather in comparison to other, more readily avaliable options for AC. I can grab a large shield at level 1 and it will give me the same AC as a level 6 spellsword? An unenchanted tower shield is the same as a level 12 spellsword? By the time I hit level 12, i've probably gotten ahold of a mithril shield or better.
Please remember, in addition to the AC reduction you got Mage armour back...

At level 1... that's 2 AC from a shield vs 5AC that the Spellsword gets.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:54 pm

When I pointed before the oddity that was spellswords not getting mage armor, it wasn't a matter of balance - because, realistically (and as I said before), mage armor is a spell that only has use in the very early levels, and then its only use is to provide a +1 Dodge. I made the observation because it was a thematic oddity, that you could get the epic spell but not the standard variant.
Of course, ICly, you can always come with whatever strange excuse to justify the mechanics...

In early levels, I guess you wouldn't feel the difference. STR-based spellswords are going to be pretty constricted until they get auto-still. Dex will probably experience the most versatility of build, and pure int is mostly a waste.
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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:42 am

Kirito wrote: Please remember, in addition to the AC reduction you got Mage armour back...

At level 1... that's 2 AC from a shield vs 5AC that the Spellsword gets.
I remember, but can't I just cast mage armor, then equip the shield after casting for a total of +6 AC with a large shield? As noted, mage armor looses its effectiveness as time goes.

Sorry if it seems like i'm being a downer; i actually really like the spellsword class and have been trying to getting around to making one.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:09 am

Not from level 1 you can't...and even if you take fighter at 4 the spell sword will still have better AC due to mage armour.

At level 6, assuming you can get steel by then, you're an even footing with the shield AC but a weaker wizard, same at 12 and mithral.

The change was done to promote options and choice (as well decrease endgame AC)

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Purplemyst » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:03 pm

Quick question does anyone know if I can use the epic illusion send image spell with a spell sword to create a clone of myself?

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Opustus » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:12 pm

Extension to Purplemyst's question: What about Animal Empathy, if you charm an animal? How about the domination spells, do they still work normally?
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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:05 pm

I think:

Epic illusion doesn't use any of the spellsword bonuses, so they suck as default.
Probably charm and domination abilities work as normal. Probably.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Peppermint » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:39 pm

I'm rather sure that Iceborn is correct.

I'll add that the console-based spells (e.g. -scry, -project_image, etc.) may be removed from spellswords at some point. It's not really my call to make. It's Kirito's, but it seems logical (and he's alluded the possibility before).

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Iceborn and peppermint are correct... or should be.

Epic focus spells will likely be excluded from the path in the future (similarly if/when the GSF bonus spells get extended to ESF they will not get those either.)

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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:03 pm

Why, though?
Most command epic spells are utility or RP tools, and spellsword isn't a particularly powerful path to merit more restrictions to it.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Peppermint » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:16 pm

Presumably consistency reasons.

They're 'epic' spells. It makes little sense to block other epic spells while allowing those.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Kirito » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:21 pm

Consistency is one reason, they lose all epic spells (bar armour) they ought to lose other epic abilities too that are tied to those levels

The other version is

A pure mage should be better at doing magic.
A pure fighter should be better at being a fighter.

The spellsword sits between the two, and should blend the two forms together. Looking at one half they will look worse, (there is hopefully still more to come for this path too... and at that time the rest of the epic abilities will go... I just need time ^^)

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Lorkas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:32 pm

The fact that cleric is such a strong gish build makes me think it isn't a balance issue. It's kind of odd that a battlecleric, for example, can already get comparable AC and much better AB, but also has access to the epic spells. Battlecleric just doesn't get epic mage armor, showing that there's no reason to say that a class needs to have access to all of the epic spells or none of them.

A spellsword build is likely to spend the majority of its epic feats on combat boosts, probably leaving room for no more than one or maybe two of the epic spell focus feats. If they choose to take more ESF feats than that, they'll be better than other spellswords at magic but worse than them at spellcasting, and a spellsword is never going to catch up to a vanilla wizard (much less a wild mage) at spellcasting, regardless of epic feat selections.

As long as -project_image sucks for them and Mummy Dust and Epic Dragon Knight remain uncastable, I don't see it as an inconsistency in the class design for them to be able to scry or ward an area.

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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Opustus » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:49 pm

The staple wizard build probably has these epic feats: epic spells, one or two ESFs, and the rest in auto-quicken/still or select epic skills feats or Great INT. At the Spellsword's current state, if wearing my powerbuild pants, I don't think I would burn feats for combat feats when casting is obviously the better choice for offence, whereas combating is the precaution or the 100-so damage per round on to mobs in PvM. Disabling ESFs from Spellswords encourages them to invest more into combat than casting, changing the way the class is built most of the time. If I were to guess, this is the thought behind the design.

This is said generally: It's a bit moot to speculate balance changes when we don't know the full story. *proceeds to speculate balance changes* It's possible that even if the ESFs are disabled, there will be other changes to compensate the nerf.
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Iceborn
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:51 pm

I would expect other changes, because as Lorkas puts it, why would you even go spellsword when cleric stands as a far superior build for might-and-magic?
After all, clerics may not get EMA, but they still get:
*Divine Favor, Magic Vestment, DIVINE POWAH, Greater Restoration, etc.
*Armor/shield proficiency.
*No ASF (which means, you don't have to murder your build with 4 autostill feats if you want to go STR).
*Access to all epic spells except EMA.
*Higher hit dice
*Will AND fort primary saves

Sure, they tend to have a crippling weakness to dispels, but it's your choice if you want to build them like that.
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Re: Latest Spellsword Change

Post by Astral » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:59 am

Iceborn wrote:I would expect other changes, because as Lorkas puts it, why would you even go spellsword when cleric stands as a far superior build for might-and-magic?
After all, clerics may not get EMA, but they still get:
*Divine Favor, Magic Vestment, DIVINE POWAH, Greater Restoration, etc.
*Armor/shield proficiency.
*No ASF (which means, you don't have to murder your build with 4 autostill feats if you want to go STR).
*Access to all epic spells except EMA.
*Higher hit dice
*Will AND fort primary saves

Sure, they tend to have a crippling weakness to dispels, but it's your choice if you want to build them like that.
This. As things stand, spellswords have no synergy between their abilities. You want int for damage but you only get ac from flat int that scales but will never out-class addy shield. So that's pointless.
Secondly, the path's options narrowed to rapier if you're dex and scimitar if you're str (no greatsword/axe or dual katanas wiz/ranger) and that's going to look stupid in game.


On top of that you consider(ed) removing access to epic spell focus and console spells. How is this path appealing if that goes live?
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