Why do we want to leveling to be faster?

[Cybernet21]

I know grinding can be boring sometimes,but realistic speaking to achieve level 30 (the pinnacle of one's capabilities) should take years IG,i also know grinding becomes worse when you don't RP and just run around killing stuff and do various loops in a row,the more you do it with haste,the worse it becomes,because you get the feeling you are late for something.

Grindind is boring but as surprising as it sounds when you take it slow it's more fun! unless...you know you are solo grinding...can't RP with yourself

[Tetra]

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[Black Wendigo]

Some of us play Arelith just for the fun of it and don't give a hoot about fast levelling, I am one of them .

[Petrifictus]

I'm happy that the leveling is "slow" in Arelith so I dont need to be worried that my gnome would be left too far behind from his friends & allies in his adventures.

In Arelith I've tried to avoid all sorts of solo grinding exp-trips and search instead some good IC roleplay with others, even if it's just small talks.

Keep the leveling progress "slow" as it is today.

[WanderingPoet]

Not complaining but I actually find Arelith leveling incredibly fast with adventure exp/RPR - especially compared to when I played a couple years ago without adventure EXP and RPR being bogged by ECL. Not to mention the ECL reduction from RPR speeding up leveling itself!

I don't understand the desire to level any faster, 1 level/week is super fast in my opinion, though I am used to characters taking several RL years to get to max level rather than one or two months. I personally think if it was any faster I'd be leveling too quick and I'd probably cut back on adventuring (which is already only once or twice a week, plus DM events) to slow it down! If I can hardly do any adventuring and still get a level a week I can only imagine how fast frequent adventurers manage to level.

[Tryn Dralar]

After being here 4 or so years, I made a new character I played before nwn came out on a rp forum called Skullport. And this is my first character on Arelith I am not off grinding everything I can to get to 30 quickly. My quickly was lvl 30 in 6 or so months. But holy crap, I am having a blast leveling at the current rate, most of it is from the rpr and not grinding. A few adventures and rpr and its amazing how much more enjoyable it really is. So 2 thumbs up for slower progession.

[Ork]

A lot of us casuals that get maybe 1 hour at most a day to play don't have the time to make meaningful progress with out characters.

[Astral]

I have no freaking idea. As I look back, every time I made it to lvl 30 something in the character's RP died and left me wondering "why did I not level slower and stretch the story while it was soooo gooood"... No idea why we want lvls. I'm also a sinner, not gonna lie about it. But honestly, most of the best scenes happen when a character is low lvl and everything is a first-timer and the RP allows more excitement and craziness when that goblin can actually kill you.

Tl DR good question.

[High Primate]

Because there are advantages to being powerful.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The same people who echo about levelling and the grind are likely also the same people who have had multiple 20+ leveled characters.

And by the nature of progression, you see dungeons at the below level 20 range a lot lot more than the epic dungeons. So you're seeing the same places again and again over years of playing the game.

That gets really really boring. Theres only so many ways to innovate exploration and roleplay in those places.

Admittedly, there have been fantastic new additions in the past year. But the layout for the Forest of Despair has basically stayed the same for 10 years. When you think about it, of course you want something else.

An interesting conversation I think to be had (and I'm almost surprised we haven't had it) is a discussion about a server rebuild. Gut half the server (the older parts), and integrate brand new settlements, brand new dungeons, etc. I know it'll be a discussion about manpower, but with over 150 IG years of history, etc etc. I do wonder if Arelith 2.0 would ever be warranted.

((Maybe that's what haks will do))

But again, play through the Forest of Despair five hundred times and then let me know if you want something new/different too.

TBH, I think expanding AdventureXP would solve many woes. It drops off around the late teens, which is arguably the greatest struggle. If it could be reworked so it drops off dramatically by level 21-ish, that would be so much easier.

[Catchup]

A thread full of opinions but very few suggestions.

The Devs have made things much easier as is. I would advise against putting all the "Grinders" in the same sack. Many of the greatest rpers I've ever encountered didn't mind getting to epics to enable their own plans.

Perhaps a change of perspective could help. Seeing something as a chore is what leads to complaints such as this. Whether you run grind for the most xp/hour since you have little time/want to get there fast or stop to write a five paragraph emote on how the shadow of a torch creates patterns on the walls over the fallen bodies of your foes, That is -your- personal choice.

If you are bothered by repetition, don't repeat. Go to another dungeon. Explore the Xpwonderland, The Underdark. Gather 20k of adventure xp and go rp. All of that will get you there.

Just keep that in mind.

*Hugs*

-Catchup

[Marsi]

People want leveling to be faster because it is boring. It is an antiquated game mechanic. Why shouldn't the xp gain be at a place where after completing every dungeon in a given area once, twice max, the character is ready to move on?

You can't force that heroic saga on other players by arbitrarily slowing everyone down. They will just (and have) find the quickest and most efficient way to do it and get back to what they were planning on doing in the first place. By the end of it, no-one is really having fun, least of all the people who don't have the time to jump through all these hoops to get to the 'fun' part.

My suggestion would be instead of making adventuring/dungeons/PvE about clicking on rooms of stationary xp-bags, the experience as a whole is made more exciting and less predictable. And I don't mean """quests""" or named mobs, either. Traps, more tie-ins with the population script, more skill checks (and not binary "you get to continue" / "you cant continue" ones either) or more randomized encounters -- anything in that vein, the specifics are besides the point. For example, that run-the-gauntlet swinging axe thing in the crypts that knocks you down to a different area. Why isn't there more stuff like that? Each dungeon we introduce to the server should be a self-contained adventure, not another place to play cookie clicker with a palette swap and a change of scenery.

Currently the entire point of PvE is to get stronger; PvE is a chore, a necessary evil. Why can't it be a fun experience in and of itself?

[High Primate]

Dude, I'm gonna play the voice of dissent and say that I love grinding, especially with a group of characters who are really ruthless or sadistic. Maybe it helps that most of the characters I play are CE, but there's a certain romanticism in running through the wilderness carving out a swath of destruction, leaving heaps of corpses in one's wake. It's also funny to see the enemies explode in critical hits. It's not like you can't roleplay while doing this, even extensively.

Gimme an energy drink and put on some good music and I'm set.

[Catchup]

Amen *Drops the Bass*

[Marsi]

Dude, I'm gonna play the voice of dissent and say that I love grinding, especially with a group of characters who are really ruthless or sadistic. Maybe it helps that most of the characters I play are CE, but there's a certain romanticism in running through the wilderness carving out a swath of destruction, leaving heaps of corpses in one's wake. It's also funny to see the enemies explode in critical hits. It's not like you can't roleplay while doing this, even extensively.

Gimme an energy drink and put on some good music and I'm set.

That's totally fair. Despite the wording of my post, I don't take all that much personal issue with grinding, but I've heard countless arguments against it -- usually from career grinders themselves -- and I have to agree, and from a game design stand-point its weak and should be replaced with something better.

[Prestige]

The grind is boring, tedious, and serves no purpose whatsoever except as a barrier to character concepts. If people want to level quickly, let them. It currently takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.5 IRL days of silently grinding with an optimally efficient party (DPS, Tank, Mage, all somewhere near 2 ecl) to reach mid-high epics. It might be possible to do it slightly faster with a 4th person-- I can't honestly say. That's somewhere around 84 hours of running through the same areas clearing the same mobs -- 84 hours that could've been spent doing other, interesting things on the server.

I'm just sour because leveling is largely the only way to progress toward any kind of mechanical goal. Your tradeskills are tied to it, your gear is just a matter of finding an enchanter and accruing gold from it. It's the adhesive that holds the Arelith mechanical model together, and it's just not particularly interesting.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I have no freaking idea. As I look back, every time I made it to lvl 30 something in the character's RP died and left me wondering "why did I not level slower and stretch the story while it was soooo gooood"... No idea why we want lvls. I'm also a sinner, not gonna lie about it. But honestly, most of the best scenes happen when a character is low lvl and everything is a first-timer and the RP allows more excitement and craziness when that goblin can actually kill you.

Tl DR good question.

I can't fathom why people think lvl 30 is "the end" - as if somehow, ceasing to be able to mechanicaly progress or gain XP, is the point at which the character ceases to be ale to interact with the game world.

That's an absolutely absurd idea. Level slowly, level quickly... it makes absolutely no difference. The character's personality, interests, manner, attitude and so on, is entirely independent of their mechanical level.

Level 30 is not the end of the story. Just imagine this in another context.

"Ah-hah, I have no obtained a PhD. I have achieved a great thing! This is now the end, and therefore I shall cease to be interesting, then vanish from existance."

Level 30 is the point at which you can be a guru, a teacher, a facilitator, a general, they could author books... Or your character could become knowledgable in X or Y pursuit of the mind, learn to be an expert on the anatomy of wyverns, take up a hobby, or- Gods forbid - actually use the skills they have picked up. Or maybe they could learn a whole bunch of things not mechanically supported. They could become an avid flower arranger...


This attitude of "Oh, level 30, story is over" is exactly the same as those who believe that you must rush through the levels. It places far more importance on the character's level than on what they actually do, or how they think.

[Durvayas]

I've found that since hitting 30, my experience and priorities with the character in regards to adventuring have turned from 'where will give me the most exp' to 'where is the best place to go at the best profit'

No longer needing to spend gold on new equipment(consumables are another story) has let me turn my focus more towards assisting others within my faction and unafilliated lowbies with finances(in the terms of employment), resources, and gear. My PC's role has taken a very sharp turn towards more of a mentor/bodyguard role than she had before. She's less just a grizzled veteran, and more become that scarred and grizzled veteran that trains the new people and shows them the ropes.

As for the OP, there are different philosophies at play.

-Some people rush through the levels because they want more agency to go new places.
-Some people rush to 30 because playing NwN is a power fantasy, and they want to be a hercules.
-Some people rush to 30 because they want to change the server without investing a lot of time in the RP, and their go-to is to PvP their way to relevance. Often, these people have a strong need for validation.
-Some people rush to 30 specifically to block rungrind powerbuilt PvP hounds from disrupting the RP of the people taking their time and assume a guardian role for the status quo.
-Some people wanna be a merchant, and ALL aspects of crafting are effectively level locked(wands, scrolls, potions, and the trades).
-Some people just wanna farm for 5% rolls(generally they stop at 26).

There are a myriad of reasons people rush towards 30.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

@OP

Well. When you've already played a character from levels one through twenty-something, and then you start fresh at level two, by the time you've started fresh at level 2 from your 20-something, it goes something like this.

"Oh- hey, I remember last time I did this delivery quest, it'll make me level 3. Okay, so I have to take these packages and run across the map to some NPC's in a quest designed to show new players the ropes. I'm not really learning anything. There's no exciting new challenge- but I guess it's cool. I'm going to get a free level and some adventuring XP for going places."

So I hit level three, and I go kill rats in droves. Each one of these rats can kill me in as few as 2-3 hits, depending on which class I'm playing and rat RNG luck. Every so often I maybe step into the goblin lair or the sewers, which carries more monsters that can kill me in as few as 2-3 hits.

I come up from the sewers and there's some drama going on in Cordor. My character is only level three, but it's the sort of drama they wouldn't turn their back on (either to help or to take advantage of the situation). Eventually, a fight breaks out, and my level three character gets turned to cream paste, learning the invaluable lesson that to make changes on Arelith you must frequently (almost always) have the strength to back them up.

"Strength," here can be a relative term, but nearly almost always translates directly from high values on your character sheet, or the amount of friends your character has with high values on their character sheets.

This is something you, the player, learned in your first go, then had reinforced on your second go. Now you are left with the impetus to go be stronger in order to affect meaningful change on the server- as is your character. History has taught both you and your character that getting involved in anything without getting strong enough first will be a wasted effort that will possibly hurt others besides yourself (emotionally or physically) while you're still below X level range.

Yes, these circumstances can all be transformed into RP- but the nature of the experience both IC and OOC lends itself towards wanting to get these circumstances and RP over with as quickly as possible, so the possibility of not losing is on the table without relying on the charity of others.

[WhiskeyGuy]

I have no freaking idea. As I look back, every time I made it to lvl 30 something in the character's RP died and left me wondering "why did I not level slower and stretch the story while it was soooo gooood"... No idea why we want lvls. I'm also a sinner, not gonna lie about it. But honestly, most of the best scenes happen when a character is low lvl and everything is a first-timer and the RP allows more excitement and craziness when that goblin can actually kill you.

Tl DR good question.

I can't fathom why people think lvl 30 is "the end" - as if somehow, ceasing to be able to mechanicaly progress or gain XP, is the point at which the character ceases to be ale to interact with the game world.

That's an absolutely absurd idea. Level slowly, level quickly... it makes absolutely no difference. The character's personality, interests, manner, attitude and so on, is entirely independent of their mechanical level.

Level 30 is not the end of the story. Just imagine this in another context.

"Ah-hah, I have no obtained a PhD. I have achieved a great thing! This is now the end, and therefore I shall cease to be interesting, then vanish from existance."

Level 30 is the point at which you can be a guru, a teacher, a facilitator, a general, they could author books... Or your character could become knowledgable in X or Y pursuit of the mind, learn to be an expert on the anatomy of wyverns, take up a hobby, or- Gods forbid - actually use the skills they have picked up. Or maybe they could learn a whole bunch of things not mechanically supported. They could become an avid flower arranger...


This attitude of "Oh, level 30, story is over" is exactly the same as those who believe that you must rush through the levels. It places far more importance on the character's level than on what they actually do, or how they think.

Coming from a server where getting to 30 was what you did, many times cutting yourself off from roleplay as a result, or... stagnating at level 3 for months with no hope of advancement, I agree with this.

What I mean is... if I rush to 30, and have not interacted with the world, yes, my character is done. All I have done is powerlevelled and so, on completion of that, I would feel unfulfilled and needing something, so... many run this vicious circle of powerlevelling to 30, restarting anew with another character and washing, rinsing and repeating. Meanwhile, they miss the point. I know, I've been guilty of it at times.

Conversely, if you make friends early, build alliances, build trust, build a REPUTATION, your character's level means much less and the game becomes much more enjoyable. Slower advancement deepens the connections to other characters, enhances personalities, builds... dare I say it? CHARACTER, whether through failures or successes, your character's story is written. How you deal with these things as a player and your character is molded by them determines how much enjoyment you will glean from the experiences.

All that said, I think Arelith has a fine mix of advancement and roleplay. Life certainly doesn't end at 30, but, if you've done nothing but "grind to 30", your character didn't have much of a life, did they?

[High Primate]

I can't fathom why people think lvl 30 is "the end" - as if somehow, ceasing to be able to mechanicaly progress or gain XP, is the point at which the character ceases to be ale to interact with the game world.

Same here! In fact, I find it ironic that those who are generally opposed to grinding consider a character's story to be defined by the acquisition of a mechanical level.

[Black Wendigo]

I had a char that was level 30 for nearly ten RL years. He had LOTS of story during that time. Your char is only done if you choose to make it so, whether its level 1 or level 30.

[Prestige]

I can say that I personally had an experience when I first started playing where a high epic cleric imploded a bunch of people in my party in the middle of a settlement, then bashed them with minimal RP and didn't get in any trouble despite the reports. I basically said "Oh, okay, if that's allowed I'm not going to spend a bunch of time at a point where I'm completely powerless to stop it." Consequently, most of my characters have been mid-high epic by the time I'm ready to sink my teeth into roleplay with them.

I can honestly say that it makes finding RP and purpose a little more difficult, but if you set out with a clearly defined goal, you find yourself less mechanically inhibited in its acquisition if you do grind a lot. In short, it has its merits if you build a character knowing that they're going silently to epics as opposed to being built into a faction. Having friends who aren't just making a character to roll helps a lot as well.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I'm really slow at levelling. I have little kids, and don't have that many slots of 2 hours where I know I'm going to be uninterrupted. I might be in game a fair bit, but when its game time that irl is being spent making cups of orange juice, setting up play doh stations, cooking supper and changing the tumble drier, its not time that's conducive to being in a dangerous dungeon, earning 35 xp a kill.

I don't think levelling slowly gives you more time to meet with people. I think it can be very alienating. Its like being the Highlander or something: people rise, get to max level, rule the world and die before your eyes like Mayflies.

[Ambigue]

For me, the grind has a big, notable drawback.

I want to try out some of these super-cool extra races! But I can't. Because getting a character all the way to even 16 takes me a while. I've only every managed it, I think, three times. And, let's say I do manage to get to 30, what then? I *might* get a major reward. And, if I don't, I can begin the year-long process all over again. And very likely fail to get it.

It's kind of discouraging. It's not that the pace itself is problematic, it is that it gates off really interesting content. I can't grind up multiple 20+ level characters and cycle through them in order to get to play the one or two characters I *really* want to. I don't have the time and doing it quickly means less interesting RP for me.

There's not really a good fix. I can understand wanting to keep certain races and classes rare and I agree that they should be. But, by the same token, how many hundreds of hours of my life do I need to gamble on the off-chance that I can finally run around as, like, an ogre or malevolent chicken?