About the "stats" you see when you examine a character

[Cybernet21]

Are there general numbers for each tier(average,high,above average,etc)of stat?And does someone know wich ones are a mix of abilities/skills?

Just so it's easier to know what people see when they examine your character, without using summons or sending a tell to someone write your stats.

[Cortex]

I think this is pretty FOIG, and WYWIWYG. The names given to each stat are pretty self-explanatory most of the time.

[Cybernet21]

Yeah i guess it's FOIG because knowing it would let you know other characters real stats exactly(like Ability scores).Nevermind then

[Black Wendigo]

No one should ever be sending tells either with their stats or requesting them. That's meta information. What you see when you examine a char is deliberately made vague so that it represents what your char actually sees.


It's not even FOIG because there is no way to know someones stats without metagaming. Chars have no way to even ask that because they'd have to use game jargon. If your char can't know something without a tell, then your char probably is not going to be able to know it.

[Cortex]

It's not even FOIG because there is no way to know someones stats without metagaming.

You'd be shocked how much those stats tell, even back in the day DragonEye knew how to find out people's builds exactly just with *looks*.

*looks* used to be the way to check someone's stats instead of being shown in the description way back in the day.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I don't like it.

[Teshil]

It's a great idea but the info given is so specific that it's stunningly revealing. Even if you can't guess their classes exactly, you can be certain of the 90% of classes they aren't. I was surprised to see it here.

Perhaps show just two or three categories like "Physically fit" or so? Make it way more vauge. Or you only see the most obvious ones unless you have high search/spot?

[Cortex]

It could be interesting that only certain physical traits were available, and more was shown depending on another score of the one examining them, like a mix of lore and wisdom.

[Rwby]

I think a lot of this is the fault of the players here.

For example, pretty much every Paladin on Arelith is clumsy idiot, with immense physical strength. Every wizard is a clumsy genious with pitiful charisma and self awareness and so forth.

This leads to a world where characters meet new people and do go, 'Yep, you look exactly the same as every other Paladin, so I'ma gonna guess you're a Paladin!'

[Cortex]

Alternatively, every single stat is EXTREMELY HIGH or just HIGH, except persuade and charisma.

[Cybernet21]

No one should ever be sending tells either with their stats or requesting them. That's meta information. What you see when you examine a char is deliberately made vague so that it represents what your char actually sees.
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I didn't mean the exact stats,i meant the average,above average,etc.. stuff of your character seeing as you cant see them yourself,just so you know what people see when examining your own character.But i guess it would made you have an idea of each tier since you already know your own stats

[Black Wendigo]

Descriptions should be enough to tell you anything you need to know for RP. You can use then to let players know exactly what chars see without giving specifics of stats, hints of stats, ranges, or anything else that gets a little too close to metagaming. I feel this is how we know what our chars see when they look at another char.

I'm actually not a big fan of they way now when you examine a char you can guess pretty closely as to what the stats really are. It's not hard for people to do so and figure out whether or not they can beat them in pvp. I would rather remove them altogether.

Could someone tell me the reason to include this information in the first place? It seems like fixing something that isn't broken to me.

[Honeybunny]

It is a love/hate relationship for me.

As an Enchanter, I love that I can look at a level 3 and figure out what sort of gear to make for them.

But I hate it for... a lot of the reasons above.

[yellowcateyes]

Part of the original idea behind the visible stats thing was to give 'social' skills more play. People could see whether a character actually was charismatic, persuasive, or intimidating and react accordingly.

It was an optimistic intention. While some people do actually use it for that purpose, for the most part it's used to gauge the other PC's build, level and weaknesses, often in prelude to PvP.

There are a few big issues here:

1) It's too granular. You can tell when someone's low-level because of the exact descriptor beside Discipline and/or Concentration.

2) It offers too much information. You can easily surmise a character's dump stat, their main stat, and their secondary stats. Figuring out their class is pretty easy from there.

3) It's too easy. Unless the person you're looking at has high ranks in Bluff, it takes 0 investment to scope out their stats down to a small margin of error.


Some suggestions:

1) Narrow down what's shown to the character's highest stat, and only those social skills that they have invested in. If someone is strong and intimidating, show that. If someone looks sharp and has high persuade skills, show that. That's good enough for RP - knowing the full gamut of stats just lets people assess class and level.

2) Remove some stats completely. Why do I need to know a character's Discipline or Concentration for RP? All it does is give me info on how to pvp them more effectively. It also gives me an accurate estimation of their level.

3) Make the output less granular. Show their highest stat and whether they're persuasive or intimidating, but leave out quantitative descriptors.

4) If additional information is to be made available, restrict it to people with high ranks in Spot/Lore/whatever. Require some investment to get all the useful information out of right-click examine.

5) Last, give people with high Bluff and Perform more options in how they want to show their stats. Let them assume guises where they posture and pretend to be strong, or put on airs that they know more about the arcane than they do.

[Dr_Hazard89]

It's only really used for metagaming and I think it should have been removed a long time ago. Some of the stats shown don't even make that much sense. These are not things you can tell by looking at other people.

Charisma = attractiveness? Charisma can be a lot of things. It feels like we're being told what our characters look like. I will decide what my character looks like, not you.

How can they tell how good I am at holding weapons/not being knocked down just by looking at me? Am I to assume my character is just a complete goof who can't stand, walk or hold things properly unless I take a multi-class dip near level 30 for discipline? "Ah. I see by the way you are standing/holding that you are a very proficient warrior." sounds fine in theory, if the other person has actually included that in an emote or their description, otherwise you are telling them what their character is doing. I will decide what my character is doing, not you.

How can they tell how intelligent my character is? That's just not possible. There are an endless amount of very stupid looking (and even sounding) people in the world, and any one of them could actually be a genius. If you are "seeing intelligence" in a creatures eyes you are just seeing some visual or behavioral cue that is being recognised as similar to your own. Again, feels like other players are roleplaying my character for me. I will decide if you can tell how internally stupid my character is, not you.

Physique. I'd rather the player tell me about this. The only real problem is it should be changed to strength and not physique. A character with very high con (constitution is a synonym for physique) could be a very healthy (fit) individual who can run for days, with an exceptional physique, they're just not a bulging, roided, body-builder. A character with high dex could be incredibly lean and toned with an amazing physique. I will decide what physique my character has, not you.

Agility. This isn't something you can see unless it is being demonstrated. Especially if my character is just standing/sitting around. You can't tell my agility without RPing for me. I will decide how my character moves, not you.

Concentration. You can't see this. I will decide if my character appears to be concentrating externally or not, not you.

And those are my opinions on the *looks* system for as long as I can remember it existing.

I hope it goes away.

[MissEvelyn]

I have to agree with the above.

I, too, would like only for the most notable features about a character to be shown - and that is physical ones. It's impossible to "see" how smart, charismatic, or wise a character is. Such are features that can only be roleplayed.

However, I'm confused about one thing. In the past, the *looks* command would reveal similar details, but it would also tell you if your character was very precise or not at spotting such details. I believe it was based on Search.

Is it still based on a skill like Search or Spot?

[caldura firebourne]

Its still based on your spot vs their bluff or perform, whichever is higher

[Lorkas]

Spot never mattered in the accuracy (only in beating disguises). Neither did perform (perform makes you better at disguising, but doesn't scramble your stats when not disguised).

It was WIS+level vs bluff if I remember correctly.

[Mango Reinhardt]

I personally have always hated the fact that bluff scrambles your stats for various reasons. I can't even count how many times I've gotten really weird IC questions in the vein of 'Are you sick or something?', only to find out in that instance that my Con is being reported as Extremely Low. It also completely invalidates the systemic benefit of social skills when other people can never see that you've invested the points, as your bluff skill seems to scramble those as well.

The more important problem, as I see it, is that people are able to fairly easily metagame that you are indeed a bluff focused character, as if you are looking at a rogue showing 'very low' constitution for example, you might easily guess that this person does not indeed have a single digit CON, particularly if you are in a party with them and can see their HP.

[Black Wendigo]

I am at a loss to really understand why these stats were implemented in the first place, Anything that can be seen by another char can be put into your descriptions of your chars. Further these descriptions should not be undermanned by something mechanical like these stats. (Which I feel they do.)

As was said above, I too, feel that these stats are god emoting how chars see another char.

[Aero Silver]

I think the description should be relative to the beholder.

For example, a kobold with 8 strenght perceiving a rogue with 12 strength as relatively strong. But a barbarian. But a barbarian with 20 strength will perceive the same rogue as puny. The barbarian should still identify that the rogue is too agile and fast, though.

Another example, any caster class should be able to tell if a character is "awakened" and can use magic without UMD. So a sorcerer or cleric should be able to identify the connection to the weave or divine magic.

These are my two cents.

[Tyrantos]

Personally, I think that these stats should be utelised more in RP. I mean, I've even taken to stat up Persuade and intimidate beacause I think its fittng the charather. But maybe thats just me?

[MissEvelyn]

Personally, I think that these stats should be utelised more in RP. I mean, I've even taken to stat up Persuade and intimidate beacause I think its fittng the charather. But maybe thats just me?

It's definitely not you. There's a lot of us who are willing to "waste" (irony intended) skill points on RP skills. Although we've recently seen a more mechanical use of them (Persuaded working well with bounties, etc.), so hopefully it'll continue to go in that direction =)

[Sab1]

Well you generally can tell if someone isn't very smart, after all someone with an 8 int, probably isn't pulling off being a super genius very well. Also I think thee stats can be useful. For example if I am playing a character who has a horrible intimidate score and I am walking around the nomad trying to bully people. My guess is people should be aware he is probably doing a very bad job at it.

As for below average, average, high etc you can probably take a good guess for a general idea.

[Black Wendigo]

RE: to the example above. If your char would have poor intimidation then it is the rp that would show he's not being a very good bully. You don't need to know his stats for that.