IC vs Player Actions

[SwampFoot]

Perhaps I've titled this wrong. I'll just get to the question/comment.

Not so long ago I was soloing a popular grind spot when I came across a group of significantly lower leveled group. I had been there a bit, their group was at the optimum xp gain strength in numbers and really didn't need me. Fine I can leave.

But then one of the characters suggested they might break my legs if I don't.

IC, my Tempus praying Weapon Master could have pressed that, killed them all and gleefully carried on. Bad feelings would no doubt have been shared, and one or more might have whined about it to DMs. I instead chose to break from what the character might have done and go with leaving. It should be pointed out that at least one of them knew what my character was capable of and, if he was smart passed that information along.

But the question is this: At what point do you, as a player decide to threaten IC instead of looking at a more reasonable solution? Certainly, even a Banite can offer a peaceful parting of ways first before diving into threats.

This is in no way calling out the group in this instance. It's simply the most recent example of me walking away from a fight instead of murdering lower level, aggressive characters.

[DarkDreamer]

My characters have often told characters, dont threaten unless you yourself intend to bring it, then if the char persues, kill ONLY that char unless the others jump in. Then they are pushing the conflict on an IC level.

[Cybernet21]

Well,the character who said he would break your legs probably(emphasis on probably) was just IC.So you could RP back another threat,never go to attacking first specially when the party was lower level than you,so with RP'ing they would either never give threats to you again,go away in fear or attack you.If they attack you and you killed them they have no right to whine that to DM's you would have RP'ed before PvP and they would have still attacked you (just remember to dislike them before attacking).In moments like this it's good to send tells that it wasnt anything OOC but only IC,saying you have nothing agaisnt the players themselves

[yellowcateyes]

For me, the big question is who is initiating the confrontational RP. If you unexpectedly come across a lower-level character and your character has IC reasons to engage in hostilities, it's only polite to give the other player an option to roleplay out of the situation. Not everyone is looking for conflict RP; it's in keeping with the 'be nice' rule to afford people a chance to avoid it instead of being ambushed by it.

If a character you know to be lower level is the one initiating the confrontation and being aggressive, I feel it's more appropriate to simply react in-character. Choices should have consequences after all, and there's no need to bend your character to avoid a situation that another character is actively choosing to create.

This isn't to say immediately hit hostile button -> pvp. There are plenty of ways to resolve confrontational RP and to offer the lower level character choices and banter throughout.

[Opustus]

I guess it boils down to how diehard of a roleplayer one is. I understand that in a utopia everyone would abide by the clause of RP with consequence, but I could NEVER bring myself to do something that even might be considered rude or unfair in the sense that it would disrupt someone's enjoyment on the server. To skirt around the unknowingness of another person's mind, I've come to find the easiest solution is to ask her personally.

In your situation, I would have asked the party in question OOC: "My character would brook no disrespect but let her sword sing, damned the consequence. Are you okay with this course of action or would it terribly impede on you? If the latter, I will happily use my imagination to come up with a plausible excuse for my character to spare you." I know that OOC is not endorsed on Arelith, but I don't believe in absolute rules; in your situation it would stand to reason to ask the players themselves, as you would hate to upset them.

[Iceborn]

As always, I suggest in finding an in-between ground where you can retain the identity of your character without compromising any fun factor in the game. How you do that,is the challenge every single one of us has to face with their own characters and the situations that present themselves.

As a levelled tempurian (tempurite? temp-whatever), would your character find sense in a battle with an obvious outcome? Without threat and risk of death? Perhaps he could have challenged one of them in the party to a duel in the name of Tempus. You could still give them the ground in excuse that they are "unworthy peasants" with their current low levels, with or without the fight.

If they are the ones that press and egg for the fight, there's nothing stopping you from rolfstomping the whole party, sure. And you could say that it's not your problem anymore if a bunch of lowbies commit mass suicide. It's not a fun option either.

So I close this how it started: Find the in-between ground of realism and fun.

[Xanos950]

What's worse?
- Breaking Character and RP and going with an option the character usually would not do IC.
- Maybe breaking the Be Nice Rule.

[Xerah]

What's worse?
- Breaking Character and RP and going with an option the character usually would not do IC.
- Maybe breaking the Be Nice Rule.

You're involved in collaborative storytelling, (with an absolute of only those two options) breaking the be nice rule is far worse than breaking your own roleplay. You can contact the other person and tell them that you will attack or whatever which can press the matter further and give them a chance to get out of it.

There is one character in a show that is written like this. Hyper-aggressive, but gives people ways out. (warning: swearing - delete if not okay!)

[Elena]

If you know OOCly, that he can't break your legs, that's great. But if you base your reason to stay simply because you know you're higher level and that guy can't make his threat come true - well, that's your choice. But then it's not based on IC knowledge. Some would say the other guy chanced it himself so what...


I would ask myself: Does my character know that this other dude can't break his legs? How likely is someone hiding in the shadows? Do I want to find out or better be safe than sorry? I've withdraw myself from countless situations without just going for the mechanical solution.. and I will continue to do so.

What's worse?
- Breaking Character and RP and going with an option the character usually would not do IC.
- Maybe breaking the Be Nice Rule.

Bend / break my Character/RP and go with an option the character usually would not, and challenge myself to try my best and get the story going.

[flower]

How you know given character is lower level?

And are you aware group of well geared lowered levels can také your higher level out?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I really like yellowcateyes response, and I think it speaks to a core philosophy of roleplaying.

If you are initiating a scene, or raising the questions, you should be prepared to deal with any of the consequences. You don't go hunt down a drow because you're a Myon elf, and then expect the drow to play nice and think of the Be Nice rule above roleplaying. You initiated that. You went after that avenue of roleplaying. You, are putting the ball in their court. So if they wail the ball and smoke you in the face and break your nose, well, you shouldn't have given them the ball if you weren't prepared to deal with that.

But, if you are on the receiving end, you absolutely should retain the right to dictate to how Be Nice and staying IC plays out.

So I think it would totally have been fine to retaliate.

What I think is most damning about this scenario is that characters are threatening characters over killing monsters in dangerous areas.

In what world that make sense?

It doesn't.

It's about threatening characters AND PLAYERS over grinding areas. I always think that's breaking the 5 Rules and should warrant a talking to to by DMs.

[Queen Titania]

How you know given character is lower level?

And are you aware group of well geared lowered levels can také your higher level out?

You don't always know this, but if you approach your engagements with a fair mind, you don't have to worry about it.

That said, Good PvP should always:

1): Allow a clear escape. I watch characters chase others across lots of areas because they really want to get that kill. letting them escape, allowing for a second meeting, creates tension, elongates the story, and allows more RP to be made out of the situation (in general) than it would have with a death.

2): Be your last Story-telling too (Or one of the lasts). Killing is a significant plot point, and I would treat every PC you meet as a significant character, or potentially one.

3): Don't go straight to an outright killing spell. Abilities that stun/knockdown make useful warnings. Battles that end in seconds tend to be the least fun and cause the most sting.

4): Don't forget you have subdual. I rarely see this used despite its great advocation for ages years ago.

5): Keeps in mind with what is in mind for the player. There are a lot of tell warnings, but I don't think OOC tools are needed at all to accomplish this.

6): Have the Aftermath (and preceding events) be more impactful than the actual event.

Make the conflict mean something. Conflict over who is taking monsters isn't great. If monster scarcity is a problem, I can give you a LOT of monsters.

[Lorkas]

4): Don't forget you have subdual. I rarely see this used despite its great advocation for ages years ago.

Is it actually fixed yet? I've seen many Bug Report threads about it just killing people, so it's no surprise that people wouldn't take a 5 AB self-nerf for no RP gain at all.

[Queen Titania]

4): Don't forget you have subdual. I rarely see this used despite its great advocation for ages years ago.

Is it actually fixed yet? I've seen many Bug Report threads about it just killing people, so it's no surprise that people wouldn't take a 5 AB self-nerf for no RP gain at all.

It was fixed recently, but report if its still broken.

[Catchup]

Ic is ic. Considerations apart as stated above.

If it is in character to perform or react in a certain way and you have been courteous enough to warn with a response, enjoy your fight.

[Voidstone Roulette]

If you have a valid and IC reason to send a group planeswalking to the Fugue, do it.

In my opinion this new rule is in place as a statement of intent for a very small group of players who are actually going out of their way to find fights, and log in with the intention of pvp, not rp.

[One Two Three Five]

That doesn't preclude everyone else from following it, mind.

[Durvayas]

The new rule does pose some issues for high level assassins. In the past, I've had my character sent after characters significantly lower level than my assassin.

An assassin can't tell if the target they're about to murk in a quarter or city street is much lower level than they are at a glance. Their entire job revolves around murder for hire. This begs the question:

Does the onus fall on the one placing the bounty to not knowingly put a price on a lowbie, knowing that virtually all assassins are mid to high epics or are assassins expected to hamper or cancel doing their own limited assassin RP based on the level of the target, even though it would make absolutely zero sense to do so?

[Queen Titania]

The new rule does pose some issues for high level assassins. In the past, I've had my character sent after characters significantly lower level than my assassin.

An assassin can't tell if the target they're about to murk in a quarter or city street is much lower level than they are at a glance. Their entire job revolves around murder for hire. This begs the question:

Does the onus fall on the one placing the bounty to not knowingly put a price on a lowbie, knowing that virtually all assassins are mid to high epics or are assassins expected to hamper or cancel doing their own limited assassin RP based on the level of the target, even though it would make absolutely zero sense to do so?

It really comes down to a simple question: How do I make this fun for them?

You can put a bounty on a low level character, and trust the assassins that go after them to play fun and fair. You can give a way to remove it. The whole point to avoid is a throwing-around of mechanical power and habitual PvP where people are dying from you on a daily basis. You probably shouldn't resort to a bounty right away. Let things build up, give conflict and tension time to grow. It will make things more exciting, more tense.

[Mr_Rieper]

I think the best thing to do would be to focus on your motivations vs your characters motivations.

By that, I mean, when you decided to leave on behalf of the new arrivals - was that YOU as a player, or your character?

If it was your character, would his pride be injured by the implication that such fresh whelps could take him on, even after he decided to move aside for them?

As players, we are often easily provoked. As characters, we needn't be. Sometimes more experienced characters have enough pride to let things go, especially when they know they can win. On the other hand, if your character decides to teach them a lesson, then RP it. Express it. Let them see some genuine emotion and motivation from your character. Then if it falls to PvP, you've done your duty as a roleplayer.

[Hatsune Miku]

You can give a way to remove it.

The only way to remove it, to my knowledge, is through the death of a character who corpse is then marked by the assassin's blade - otherwise the bounty remains until it is fulfilled by another.

[Durvayas]

There are only two ways to end an assassin contract. By completion via marking the corpse with an assassin's dagger, and by the target themselves paying it off.

It should be noted it costs double for the target to pay off any given amount.

[Selvagion]

I myself don't like killing PC. I have always bad felling about it and if is possible to avoid it, I will do it. But I will not break my character, when someone do something stupid. They should face the consequences, it's part of the game.

I personally experienced on some other server low level hobit insulted our drows. And that is certainly not wise.

It was on surface in pirate bay, where we was barely tollerate. So we play that if we kill him, some pirates could use this as an excuse to wipe out our little group. But there was system when we were able to beat him unconscious and broke his arms, legs and jaw - nice couple of hours with marvelous penalties to teach him a lesson. And which drow will hesitate to tortute someone insted of just kill him But he survived his foolishness.

[Dorkas]

If you know you're higher level I think it's wise not to jump to mass pvp, because that feels super cheap to me, and not really fun. Perhaps intimidating/calling out the one who made the threat or possibly a duel if they don't take their words back or something.

I know once on a lower level toon with a friend, we got jumped by a group of 5 players after very minimal "we gonna pvp u" roleplay, so of course we didn't have a chance. My character went to Cordor afterwards and told some people about what happened. This caused a warband to head to the dungeon we were in, found said group and then murdered them apparently. IC action, IC consequences. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[flower]

Hey, same cheap is when low level taunts higher level fully aware he can get killed.

However what i saw and is outright silly and stupid is when neutral-good aligmented characters do kill over a mere insult or taunt. It is like...expressing life has no value. Id understand some devilish orc to butcher you for sayin his mom smells but for example Elf doing same uhh. Like you dont walk down street and dont shoot guy who calls you an idiot (and if you do i hope you dont live next doors to me ).