scribing/casting raise dead + resurrection

[Diilicious]

- The scribing of Raise Dead scrolls will cost 25% piety, 10000 gold and 100 xp
- The scribing of Resurrection scrolls will cost 50% piety, 20000 gold and 200 xp

- The casting of Raise Dead from scrolls will cost 50% piety (25% for clerics)
- The casting of Resurrection from scrolls will cost 75% piety (50% for clerics)

is that a % of your current piety or a % of your maximum piety (100) this is also completely insane in my opinion.

20000 gold just to scribe the scroll? AND 50% piety? AND 200xp? completely unecessary,

and since it mentions only from scrolls can i assume that casting this spell natively from your spellbook doesnt carry such an insane penalty?

I can say already that hearth and home is already at a disadvantage piety wise when they are out in the field, this just feels needlessly punishing.

[kittenblackfriends]

It costs 50% piety out of the 100% state. aka 50.0 points.

Hm, I could say H&H Aspect would do well from a boon granted to these costs, perhaps halving them. Nature lets nature do its thing, War knows people die in war.

[Lorkas]

As far as the update states, there isn't any change to characters who cast Raise Dead from their spellbooks. If anything, this is a good thing for clerics, for several reasons.

[Dunshine]

No change to the regular spells cast nope, and it's indeed 50% points, so with piety 80% will make it 30% afterwards, not 40%.

[Diilicious]

This is a good thing for clerics, for several reasons.

could you maybe elaborate? im not seeing it at the moment... maybe im just still looking at this from a shopkeeper perspective.

its going to cost 200,000 gold minimum, 2000XP to make a set of ten scrolls and 500 points of piety, where you can either spend 5000 gold on an altar per casting, which brings the cost of making them to 250,000 gold, or you can pray for around 15 minutes per casting assuming you have an altar to your faith on hand which most wont, meaning even at best case it will take over two and a half hours IRL to pray enough to be able to cast successively.

[kittenblackfriends]

Yes. In all rights, you should not be selling RD/Rez scrolls cheaply.

You are literally returning a person to life through your god's grace. You should be forcing people to pay an appropriate fee for that, either through taking up quests in your god's name or asking for substantial tithes you can use to further your god's cause.

Being a cleric is not being a buffbot wizard. They have FAR more involved RP because they call on a higher power. Even goodly deities will make people pay to be raised.

[One Two Three Five]

^ This.
Also, maybe if people want to raise on the go, they'll bring clerics.

[Lorkas]

Clerics are now the only characters who can reliably raise fallen party members mid-adventure. This raises their party value immensely.

Every other character in the game will have to either buy those crazy expensive scrolls you mentioned, or they would have to rely on scrolls they find in loot containers. Even then, those party members have to sacrifice 50% of their piety in order to cast them, which all but cuts them out of the chance to get a god-save themselves if they need it.

From the shopkeeper perspective--yes, raise dead scrolls just became far more expensive for you to produce, but you also now have a lot less competition, since no NPCs are selling them anymore. All that money that went to NPCs in the past could very well be going to PC clerics, if they require a "donation to the church" every time they cast a raise dead or resurrection spell. You probably can't get 10k for it, but some people very well might pay 1k or so in order to avoid having to pray at an altar for awhile, and that spell cast is free for you as long as you're not making a scroll.

[Diilicious]

Im aware of the RP of my class, and really in a mechanical sense thats exactly what they are, especially the healer class.

also I didnt sell them at all previously, because npcs could sell them indefinitely and for cheaper than a player could scribe them. I had made a post before requesting that the NPC price be toned down to make PC's competitive, this would be like removing puchasable portal lens from all vendors, and making portal lens craftable only with 5 gold ingots and 50 cut diamonds...

My main gripe with this though is the piety aspect, my character is as pios as they come but i have limits to my patience as well, it may have merits but this is overkill in my opinion. 80% of the people that will be using these scrolls do not even need their piety for anything and can easily get it back again on the fly just by just casting spells, or killing enemies.

it seems like the responsibility buck got passed from the person who died (death timer), to those who can revive (literally mandatory forced idle praying)

[Yma23]

Also long periods of waiting time for if there's no cleric about/cleric has not enough peity. This will likely mean either having to respawn or waiting quite a while whilst your body is dragged to an altar. And if you're mid way through a dungeon, that could be a while.

[Rwby]

You're a cleric. You're going to be casting it from your spellist for 0 piety, not from a scroll, right?

[One Two Three Five]

Also long periods of waiting time for if there's no cleric about/cleric has not enough peity. This will likely mean either having to respawn or waiting quite a while whilst your body is dragged to an altar. And if you're mid way through a dungeon, that could be a while.

Pay the money? I'm sure they'll show up in shops.
Make friends with clerics, hard as it may be?

Your character knows the needed preparations, not wanting to make them is hardly an excuse.

And anyway, respawning isn't even close to as hurtful as it used to be, soooo..

[kittenblackfriends]

This also stops people from killing people and then raising them to enslave them, as opposed to, you know, subduing them.

[Yma23]

You're right. I'll just have to hope that the clrics I know on line are at my beck and call to go adventuring whenever I can/am avaiable, are a similar level to me, are a simlar belief system to me and have a similar play time to me. Easy things.

Or I could just solo.

[One Two Three Five]

These are concerns for any group, though? And, well, some of those sound like roleplay concerns.

[Yma23]

True, and finding a group of pcs who want adventure, and bring my guy along, when I have time, to a place where I won't nurf the xp - is already tremendously difficult for me. To the extent that at epic levels I only adventure once per ooc month. Finding a group that has a /cleric/ in it, is going to be even harder.

[Lorkas]

You don't have to have a cleric in your group, but your character needs to make sure that they are planning for the actual level of difficulty they expect to experience, if you don't have one.

The worst case scenario here, a respawn, still involves the absolute lightest respawn penalty that has existed on Arelith in the 5 years I've played here.

[WanderingPoet]

One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone can play with a priest, for example, priests. If I'm playing my priest and I'm in a group and then -I- die, who is going to raise me? Now I must respawn (ending that dungeon's RP), or supply my entire party with raise dead scrolls to ensure that I can be brought back, or hope there is a sacrificial altar somewhere in the dungeon.

You don't have to have a cleric in your group, but your character needs to make sure that they are planning for the actual level of difficulty they expect to experience, if you don't have one.

Unless you have been to an area before, it is difficult to plan for the actual level of difficulty. I recently took me first trip to Blackfin Isle with a group of slightly higher levels. Fortunately my priest was able to do a great job of just healing his allies, but the one time an enemy decided to look at him he almost melted. My two allies I was with were around level 25 and I was 22 at the time - there is no way (that I know of) for me to know that the area was too difficult for me to survive. If this was after the reset and I had died, they'd have no way to bring me back except leaving the dungeon or pushing on while carrying my corpse. I could respawn but that'd not help them either.

That said, I really like the idea of being able to raise at altars - it is unfortunate that it is only for server-placed ones as there is rarely one to your actual deity.

[Ork]

I feel like the change goes counter to the idea of exploration the dev's have outlined prior. We lowered the EXP hit on death so that people would explore and engage in challenging encounters, but now if a player dies in these challenging encounters …adventure is over! Certainly you didn't earn 10k gold to support the scroll you're about to use in the situation.

Really puts the casual players at a huge disadvantage. I'm sure the 24/7 grinders won't find it too difficult.

[flower]

It has - as +.

Something to push the difference wizard / priest was heavily needed and this is the right way imho.

I remember mom playing nwn cleric on one server and half of her daily activity was saving people from dungeons, getting paid for that . This wont be issue on Arelith, as respawning does not cost you anything.

But yes, now if half of party dies and you got no cleric (or he is one who died as first ) then your adventuring is most likely over.

with this change perhaps penalties to characters should be reduced to half or one hour only after respawn.

[Krivoklat]

As I read the description you can't use a player-created altar to raise your fallen friend(s) what if you have an obscure god? What if you don't know where a non-player altar to your god is located?

Could we have added an option to speak with an NPC cleric and pay a fee to have THAT cleric cast raise dead or Rez on your fallen friend? So for example, in Cordor, you don't have to go on a search to find an altar, you COULD speak to Haulfest, and have him rez your fallen friend...?? Just as in D&D where you pay the temple fee and they have an NPC acolyte or full cleric cast the desired spell for the appropriate donation to that temple.

This would alleviate the grand search across the entire module for a non player created altar to YOUR diety.

[Lorkas]

It doesn't have to be an altar to your deity.

[Horselords]

While respecting diverging opinions, I truly don't understand all the fuss about this change. Or is it just resistance to change?

Ok, levels 10-15 are really hit by this, but levels 10-15 are also the easiest level range to find a group, the bigger choice of places to go (so you will always have a place where you character is adapted),etc... so basically the most impacted by the change are also the easiest levels to breeze through.

For higher (epic?) levels, you have the gold to at least always have a single emergency scroll, if you don't, that's your mistake as a player. Sure you will not want to spend them like candies whenever Foolish-Joe gets himself killed, but that's rp, and that's good. Parties will bicker over what to do with a foolish conrade, alignements will be seen, and we'll drift away from "everyone is neutral as long as xp is made".

But I can assure you that not even 1% of the time at 20+ in a truly prepared adventure, will there be a case where no one has a scroll. In the end, things will go as usual. Bob will die, and will get raised few secs later, with or without cleric. And that's not to even account for book of souls, raise dead scrolls in chests, and the like.
Then there's the case where the party burns through their supply of raise scrolls (or piety), and repeatidly die. Well? No drama there either. You are either not adapting to the challenge and the game is winning (and deserves to win), or you are way over your head and shouldn't be there and should have fled at the first deaths. Both ways, powering through a dungeon where people die every 5 meters is super bad for atmosphere and taking death seriously. I'm very happy it goes away, and if the party disbands because of it? Good, they will fear the place now and contribute to restore respect for dungeons.

As for the lowbies, just respawn, no biggie. Not the most fun, true, but come on, there's no drama to be had about it. Arelith has had way more toxic mechanics in the past.

Ps: Yma, and that comes from a guy which, like you, is swamped in real life and don't have time for in-game time-wasting mechanics or the time needed to find an epic group, much less so, a group with a cleric. I don't care - at all -if there's a cleric. I will just buy a scroll, make sure someone else has one, and let's go bash some heads.

[Diilicious]

just respawn, no biggie.

isnt this the exact problem that is attempting to be solved, making death more serious?

[Diilicious]

After spending 300k on these scrolls so that my characters family shops can stock these scrolls im still of the impression that this is a mistake that needs to be reverted. its just completely insane.