Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

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Midnight In A Perfect World
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Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Midnight In A Perfect World » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:46 am

Hello, hello. I have a couple of questions regarding two of the Purple Dragon Knight's abilities.
Arelith Wiki wrote: Heroic Shield - Grants an ally a Discipline skill bonus equal to the Knight's class level, and gives them an attack bonus equal to the difference between their BAB and the Knight's. Knights Valiant also grant Haste to the shielded ally. Free action that lasts 1 hour, but applying it to a new target will remove the effects from your last target.

Final Stand - Allies, including the knight, get 2 temporary HP per Knight class level. Allies get a Dodge AC bonus equal to the difference between their AC and the Knight's. Lasts 10 rounds, duration improves with Lingering Song or Lasting Inspiration feats.
The BAB and the Dodge AC granted by Heroic Shield and Final Stand respectively, is that also added when the Purple Dragon Knight's BAB or Dodge AC is lower than that of the ally? According to the wiki it should, as it says it takes into account the difference, but I want to make sure because it would not make that much sense.

Also, the Dodge AC given by Final Stand, is that based on the Purple Dragon Knight's current AC (at the moment of casting), or unbuffed/base AC?
Last edited by Midnight In A Perfect World on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PDK - Boni equal to differences between knight and ally

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:57 am

Base AC is like, ten? I'm guessing it grabs your total ac at the moment. Which makes some builds potentially hilarious for party support.
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Re: PDK - Boni equal to differences between knight and ally

Post by Midnight In A Perfect World » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:00 am

Yeah. PDK is probably getting a revision within a week, lol. Would have to cap the maximum dodge AC given, to make it less ridiculous. Something like:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:Final Stand - Allies, including the knight, get 2 temporary HP per Knight class level. Allies get a Dodge AC bonus equal to the difference between their AC and the Knight's (with a maximum of amount of PDK levels + 2). Lasts 10 rounds, duration improves with Lingering Song or Lasting Inspiration feats.
And have the Protector path ignore this limitation.

Also,
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:Heroic Shield - Grants an ally a Discipline skill bonus equal to the Knight's class level, and gives them an attack bonus equal to the difference between their BAB and the Knight's. Knights Valiant also grant Haste to the shielded ally. Free action that lasts 1 hour, but applying it to a new target will remove the effects from your last target.
This AB bonus given, based on the BAB of the Purple Dragon Knight, can be always maximized if the Purple Dragon Knight uses a Divine Power scroll before casting Heroic Shield (That is, if it takes into account initial BAB and not 'modified' BAB! Can anyone confirm?). Perhaps that should be given a slight nerf/limitation, as well.

Furthermore,
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:Rallying Cry - Immediately diverts all enemies in a 10m radius to target the Knight. May not be used when Silenced, and does not affect Deaf or Silenced targets. Instant effect.
This no-save ability with unlimited uses, means that the PDK can interrupt any PC's action (and thus also any mage's spellcasting) at any moment, without an opposing check. That seems slightly overpowered. Maybe add an intimidate vs. concentration check here, as well?

May have somewhat turned this thread from a Q&A one into a Suggestion Box one. Sorry.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Mithreas » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:31 pm

Positive differences only. Current AC. Though note it's only the difference that matters, and most of the available buffs are also ones that work on your party already.

Rallying Cry doesn't work on PCs (and only changes the attack target of NPCs, doesn't interfere with actions).
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by yellowcateyes » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:37 pm

Mithreas wrote:Positive differences only. Current AC. Though note it's only the difference that matters, and most of the available buffs are also ones that work on your party already.
Have you considered Improved Expertise, Divine Shield, EMA, and Pale Master AC bonuses?
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Iceborn » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 pm

Oath of Wrath should probably be capped to PDK/levels or levels*2

Oath of Wrath - 1 use/day - Target loses AC equal to the Knight's INT modifier for 1 round per class level. For 1 hour per class level, Knights Vanguard get a bonus equal to their (current) INT modifier to attack and damage against all creatures with the same race as the target.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Midnight In A Perfect World » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:53 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Mithreas wrote:Positive differences only. Current AC. Though note it's only the difference that matters, and most of the available buffs are also ones that work on your party already.
Have you considered Improved Expertise, Divine Shield, EMA, and Pale Master AC bonuses?
Yeah, these are the ones I was worried about as well. Some alternatives that could make it more balanced:

1. Allies get a Dodge AC bonus equal to the difference between their AC and the Knight's (with a maximum of amount of PDK levels + 2).

2. Allies get a Dodge AC bonus equal to the difference between their AC and the Knight's, divided by 1.5 or 2.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:04 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Mithreas wrote:Positive differences only. Current AC. Though note it's only the difference that matters, and most of the available buffs are also ones that work on your party already.
Have you considered Improved Expertise, Divine Shield, EMA, and Pale Master AC bonuses?
Monk AC bonuses, totem druid AC boosts, too.

Not to mention that the various buffs that boost AC take up spellslots, and this allows you to cast them on one party member, save spellslots for other useful stuff, then behave as if you'd cast them on the entire party.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:14 pm

Artifacts, too.

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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:25 pm

Hold the phone, so if I was a ranger/AA/PDK, had 55 AB, and my ally had 45 AB, and I used Heroic Shield ...

I would be giving them +10 AB for 1 IG hour (6 full minutes)? Am I understanding this correctly?
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Midnight In A Perfect World » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:27 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Hold the phone, so if I was a ranger/AA/PDK, had 55 AB, and my ally had 45 AB, and I used Heroic Shield ...

I would be giving them +10 AB for 1 IG hour (6 full minutes)? Am I understanding this correctly?
The wiki says BAB, so no, I don't think it would work like this. According to the wiki description, it means that if you took only full BAB class levels pre-epic, you'd be giving someone who did not, the difference as a bonus to AB.

This is a problem just as much, because even if the PDK does not originally have a higher BAB than the person he's using Heroic Shield on, he could just use a Divine Power scroll to boost his BAB to that one of a fighter and always have the highest BAB possible, and thus maxing the AB boost given with the ability.

Should Heroic Shield not take into account 'current' BAB (i.e. enhanced with Divine Power), but the original BAB only, then this entire ability only gives a very marginal boost to AB, in most cases. The only times where Heroic Shield would then give a relatively big boost in AB, is when Heroic Shield is cast on a build that was not made for melee anyway, ergo useless.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:36 pm

The latter is in fact how it works.

It'll be a situational buff to 3/4 melees (provided the EDK goes for 20 pre-epic BAB), as well as to lower level PCs. Rather niche, though. 'Nice', but not worth building for, IMO.

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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Midnight In A Perfect World » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:42 pm

Peppermint wrote:The latter is in fact how it works.

It'll be a situational buff to 3/4 melees (provided the EDK goes for 20 pre-epic BAB), as well as to lower level PCs. Rather niche, though. 'Nice', but not worth building for, IMO.
If that is how it works, then Heroic Shield perfectly suits the level at which it is granted, I believe. However, Bards that go PDK will have pretty much zero use from this ability, aside from the Discipline bonus.

But yeah, that leaves only the imbalance of the AC boost from Final Stand.
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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Peppermint » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:53 pm

Midnight In A Perfect World wrote:f that is how it works, then Heroic Shield perfectly suits the level at which it is granted, I believe. However, Bards that go PDK will have pretty much zero use from this ability, aside from the Discipline bonus.
Yep, which is odd, given the class' bard synergy (i.e. song feat bonuses). Might need a looking at.

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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Nitro » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:39 pm

Ressurecting this topic for a quick question. Does Heroic Shield work on NPC's like summons/henchmen, or just players?

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Re: Purple Dragon Knight - Questions/Tweaks

Post by Karris the Anarchist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:55 pm

Works on summons just fine. Part of the reason for choosing Valiant and combine with a summon-heavy class. Sort of loses its edge in later levels when wands become more prevalent, though.
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