How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

[Wildsong]

PvP /can/ foster RP...but it is unfortunately rare.

An example of this is my "dark knight" Kaiden Vendigar who whilst a mighty level 5 ended up finding himself in a duel with Khabul just outside of Cordor after a great amount of RP. Kaiden was abused beautifully and subdued.

I knew OOCly my dude was dead, but that is how his RP is/was, so he went out like a champ. Khabul's player was great with how he RPed everything and the whole event went down wonderfully and actually led to further potential RP with the two (though sadly has not occurred yet), not to mention a significant change in my own guy's way of thinking and how he interacts with others.

So yes, PvP can actually foster roleplay.

But sadly, this is something that happens maybe five times out of a hundred.

Yes, this is the kind of stuff that's fun and worth getting into! That's awesome! But as you said, that happens maybe 5/100 xD

I think we, here, are talking about that 95.

[Ramza]

..I'm not going to go into detail about how that is entirely untrue with DnD standards with the difference in power between a level 30 and a level 10-15. But I understand your point.

[Mithreas]

"How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?"

That's a very interestingly phrased question.

It's perfectly possible to have a huge impact on the story of the server at level 10 - it's been done many times. And indeed, the core system mechanics - factions, elections, property ownership - have pretty much no bearing on PvP at all.

So, what do you mean by "leverage"? If people are going around PvPing with minimal provocation, the game itself doesn't require you to make that change your character's story.

[RedGiant]

To add to Mithreas' exploration of soft power...there's also a rather neat assassination system and entire city of ne'er-do-wells with questionable morals who have no love for the people you speak of...

[JediZero]

but constant PvP for the sake of PvP does not foster roleplay.

It can, if you let it.

Yeah no, there's not much RP to be had when someone smashes you into the ground, kills you, and then the 24 hour rule triggers. Or you get to have fun being a prisoner and having no agency in your characters actions, because you're a prisoner. Maybe even tortured or sacrificed. So many options!

[Marsi]

"Death by epics" is largely a myth, and I think a lot of anti-PvP sentiment is hysteria.

It happens, and while PvP is and should be a tool of role-playing, you do get players who have a "weak must fear the strong" dark souls PvP mentality. However, it's not really worth worrying about. "Might makes right"-players rarely triumph in the long run, as meaning on this server doesn't derive from who can outkill who.

[JediMindTrix]

Yeah no, there's not much RP to be had when someone smashes you into the ground, kills you, and then the 24 hour rule triggers.

Why does the roleplay have to involve directly interacting with them? Alternatively, waive the rule.

Or you get to have fun being a prisoner and having no agency in your characters actions, because you're a prisoner.

You can't actually be forced to do this. If you're uncomfortable with a situation you should say something to a player, and if they ignore it, a DM. This applies for everything you listed. But you are quite wrong in these being the only possible options or outcomes.

[SwampFoot]

I'd have to point out that on about half of the occasions the powered side attempts to RP and a wrench gets tossed into the works by someone on the opposing side taking an aggressive action like an offensive spell or flat-out attack. Then, of course, they get curb-stomped and bad feelings abound.

Being on the opposite side of that more than once I've found myself the only one on my side alive, not because of PvP skill, but because I played the character to the circumstances and went along with the Powered sides demands.

Both of these examples happened with the same Character.

[Rwby]

Having recently been PvPed, I can attest to appearing in the fugue, twiddling my thumb for twenty minutes, and being barred from further interaction for 24 hours was not fun, nor constructive to further RP.

You can certainly create RP from PvP. I feel it should be hugely important to note that PvP does not have to, [and nor should in my view] lead to the deaths of either participant.

There is a whole subduel system to explore, in addition to a dozen disabling spells, knockdown, and just wounding your opponent.

[kittenblackfriends]

Yes, but subdual punishes players who try to subdue over straight up kill.

It's probably one of those things that should be looked at so it isn't real in order to accomodate better RP.

[msterswrdsmn]

The first day I was back on the server, a weaponmaster walked up to me as I was on my way to a low level area and just smashed me into the ground with minimal RP.

The interaction was reported and documented.

Funny story; every new character i make usually gets pvp'd by stupidly higher level players with little to no interaction.

Spike: *Half orc walks up* GIMME GOBLIN TREASURES!! *pvp smash*
Ryang: *Wizard walks up* Aasimar? GET IT! *dead*
Terry: *smashed by two high level kobolds looking for forced slave rp*
Mifune: *Midlevel Necro of the week walks up* FOLLOW VELSHAROON OR DIE!! *fireball/flame arrow death*

All of these happened in the Bramble Woods, for some reason.

That said, personal experience? Pvp deaths are less about "super powerbuilds" and more "we have more decently leveled players on our side than yours". Case in point: all of my first-day pvp deaths were done by people around level 10 typically (except the kobolds; those were around 18). It all happened in the brambles because all of these players knew 99% of the players there are level 3-5. Dickish pvp is not limited to powerbuilds.

Short version of this? Groups, numbers, and dozens of rolls per round > one or two powerbuilds more often than not. I've only seen a handful of instance where people were stupidly outnumbered and still won (Shaalira the Younger and Valiney the Archmage vs the entire church of Bane for example).

See, when it comes to large scale pvp, usually this is how it goes.

1. Group A decides to do a raid/seige. They gather all of their forces and go to town on person/group/town B.
2. Person/Group/Town B usually has little to no heads up about this, or not nearly enough time to coordinate OOClY (people in group A usually have similar playtimes, whereas group B may not for example)
3. Group B gets the hell stomped out of them due to being outnumbered and considerably less coordinated/prepared.

Sometimes step 2 gets skipped entirely, and large groups just show up in town to smash. This got EXTREMELY common and repetative at one point. This is also why exile and racial killscripts were made.

There are some people that powerbuild the hell out of their characters, make a sudden debut once they've gotten their builds potential up, and start smashing people that don't agree with them. That happens. I can't really deny that. They don't make up the majority, though.

As far as RP goes; most of my characters start getting recognized/making before hitting level 14. Mechanical strength does not equal rp influence.

[Irongron]

Sadly, as I've said in similar topics, this is often where Devs step in, adjusting mechanics and systems to account for problems with behaviour in game. Exile system, kill scripts, while popular with some they became a kind of collective punishment to all, and were less preferable to players simply checking their own behaviour.

Like a lot of things, PvP events are fun in moderation, but it's really not what I'll let become the primary focus of play here.

[DM Rakshasa]

Or you get to have fun being a prisoner and having no agency in your characters actions, because you're a prisoner.

You can't actually be forced to do this. If you're uncomfortable with a situation you should say something to a player, and if they ignore it, a DM. This applies for everything you listed. But you are quite wrong in these being the only possible options or outcomes.

Hello, loved ones. I cannot stress enough that if anyone is making you uncomfortable with a situation OOCly and you feel is taking away your ability to RP your character, please contact us either in game, or through a Private Message. That's what we're here for. We cannot do anything to help if you don't ask for it.

[Manabi]

if you quake in terror and comply with the big bad guy, I've found that your odds of survival increase by much! Act like a proud person who ain't afraid of anything and of course you will be tested.

Yeah, pretty much that. I've been surrounded by drow on Nobi and literally he had to get down on hands and knees and cry for mercy [THE RP TEARS WERE REAL YO]. This was followed by backstabbing, backstabbing of the backstabbers, and more backstabbing and ended up being an extremely extremely fun few weeks for me. Had I just said "Oh well, hope I roll a nice discipline check here." I would have missed a great opportunity.

I know the old fashioned lowbie treatment is real, but even when it happens to my newer character I have to just bite the bullet and say, "Yeah, that's how X would act given the situation and when I reach epics X is going to simply back off - but it's even IC at this level."

I get it - it sucks when you get thwopped. Honestly, what I would reccomend is reaching out to whoever is causing you problems and say, "Hey, I am not enjoying this and want to be out of it. Is that OK with you?" I cannot imagine anyone saying no to that. If it's not fun, it's not fun.

[Reigh]

The first day I was back on the server, a weaponmaster walked up to me as I was on my way to a low level area and just smashed me into the ground with minimal RP.

The interaction was reported and documented.

Funny story; every new character i make usually gets pvp'd by stupidly higher level players with little to no interaction.

Spike: *Half orc walks up* GIMME GOBLIN TREASURES!! *pvp smash*
Ryang: *Wizard walks up* Aasimar? GET IT! *dead*
Terry: *smashed by two high level kobolds looking for forced slave rp*
Mifune: *Midlevel Necro of the week walks up* FOLLOW VELSHAROON OR DIE!! *fireball/flame arrow death*

All of these happened in the Bramble Woods, for some reason.

That said, personal experience? Pvp deaths are less about "super powerbuilds" and more "we have more decently leveled players on our side than yours". Case in point: all of my first-day pvp deaths were done by people around level 10 typically (except the kobolds; those were around 18). It all happened in the brambles because all of these players knew 99% of the players there are level 3-5. Dickish pvp is not limited to powerbuilds.

Short version of this? Groups, numbers, and dozens of rolls per round > one or two powerbuilds more often than not. I've only seen a handful of instance where people were stupidly outnumbered and still won (Shaalira the Younger and Valiney the Archmage vs the entire church of Bane for example).

See, when it comes to large scale pvp, usually this is how it goes.

1. Group A decides to do a raid/seige. They gather all of their forces and go to town on person/group/town B.
2. Person/Group/Town B usually has little to no heads up about this, or not nearly enough time to coordinate OOClY (people in group A usually have similar playtimes, whereas group B may not for example)
3. Group B gets the hell stomped out of them due to being outnumbered and considerably less coordinated/prepared.

Sometimes step 2 gets skipped entirely, and large groups just show up in town to smash. This got EXTREMELY common and repetative at one point. This is also why exile and racial killscripts were made.

There are some people that powerbuild the hell out of their characters, make a sudden debut once they've gotten their builds potential up, and start smashing people that don't agree with them. That happens. I can't really deny that. They don't make up the majority, though.

As far as RP goes; most of my characters start getting recognized/making before hitting level 14. Mechanical strength does not equal rp influence.

It is wrong to assume others are out to get you. I Play Docter Howell and 100% if a little less we do go to cordor, there usually is a mass of people waiting for us.. and there was perhaps one time where there was about nobody.. I do not powerbuild my cleric has 8 AC if I cannot win a battle I simply do not fight as I have done before when I was ambushed. I am sorry people are getting upset however IG war comes with deaths so you should look to those who run the wars.. *NOT you because your just a citizen* but the highers up's and who you elect to represent the town so these events do not happen.. I am sorry if you disagree but wharftown did not start a war, it was the people who you elected to be your MAYOR or president or whatever.. talk to them/him/her before blaming others IG. I rest my peace.

if you quake in terror and comply with the big bad guy, I've found that your odds of survival increase by much! Act like a proud person who ain't afraid of anything and of course you will be tested.

Yes thank you.

[Catchup]

How come every few months there's a new post about the same topics?

It's like there is a trend where new factions/players come into conflict with the settled status-quo and struggle.

Someone should write a novel.

[Opustus]

"Death by epics" is largely a myth, and I think a lot of anti-PvP sentiment is hysteria.

It happens, and while PvP is and should be a tool of role-playing, you do get players who have a "weak must fear the strong" dark souls PvP mentality. However, it's not really worth worrying about. "Might makes right"-players rarely triumph in the long run, as meaning on this server doesn't derive from who can outkill who.

While I agree with the assessment, I think the anti-PvP sentiment is generally a good sign. Paradoxically, it also gives some understanding of how unsupported a PvP focus on a server actually is. Moreover, people who blatantly violate server policy are often easily noticed and banned, and RP servers tend to be sensitive to report misdemeanours for further scrutiny. This is to say that I don't see reason for any hysteria either, as previous experience shows that a server with effective DMing is usually self-regulating; and the anti-PvP sentiment may well be a part of that regulation.

As a new player, I hope to provide some outsider's insight into the matter: my characters have only heard murmurs of drow being active on the surface, them kidnapping people among other unspeakable horrors. This alone is awesome as it creates an atmosphere of suspense for the people walking in the outdoors and maybe it motivates people to saddle up when they head out. If drow had not raided the surface in the recent days, none of this would have happened to me, and I applaud the whole server for this amazing effect. I am sure that this form of conflict RP relies on a mutual trust between the players that PvP can be a fairly spontaneous thing and that bad things can happen to good people. I'd encourage people to embrace PvP as a natural part of conflict-based RP without fueling the debate too much.

EDIT: Oops, read the OP more carefully and realised this discussion may be derailing the topic. Discretion is advised!

[Catchup]

On the fear of saying the same thing over and over.

Every few months a similar topic comes up with the same complaints. New factions/players face a struggle getting past what is considered the status-quo.

Someone should write a novel at this point. Fighting is part of the game. But mah epics! Etc etc.

Arguing whether it is "rp building" or not is less productive than actually rping it out.

As pointed out above there are always consequences. I'm sure it gets tiring to be on the losing end of those but conflict is what it is.

Just remember it and try to be as generous as you'd like them to be when it's your turn oppressing others.

[One Two Three Five]

Maybe it keeps coming up because getting killed by overwhelming forces because that force likes pvping for shits and grins isn't fun for people.

Maybe it's gotten worse because of a combination of the aforementioned staff neutrality and the "slow," ha-ha, fragmentation of the playerbase into painfully obvious discord/skype groups.

[SwampFoot]

I think also the "I must win" mentality takes over even for the force that is overwhelmed. Some of these instance can be easily avoided by letting your character see what's in front of him instead of looking at which characters he can take with him.

If you're faced by two Barbarians that have a reputation for killing entire platoons all by themselves, consider them before all others. Likely their back up is just a show-piece anyway. Start thinking in terms of how it's going to likely end and you can let the RP happen. Sometimes those barbarians want to create RP as much as the level four recruit behind you that just wants to be included.

[RedGiant]

Every few months a similar topic comes up with the same complaints. New factions/players face a struggle getting past what is considered the status-quo.

This is not particularly helpful to a new player with genuine concerns.

This however has a the stinging, lemony ring of truth to it.

All of these happened in the Bramble Woods, for some reason.

[WanderingPoet]

Maybe for the people who are starting the constant PVP, but it's not very fun or enjoyable for the ones on the receiving end. :\

Take the time to learn how and seize a little agency. I can reduce pretty much every complaint about PvP down to the unwillingness to invest the time (which is of variable value) required to learn how.

For myself, I find this to be a bit of an unfortunate outlook. A player can be skilled at the game and yet still not -wish- to powerbuild or create characters that can win every mechanical NWN pvp encounter. A politician character for example may be weak in combat yet stronger at the diplomatic PvP - that doesn't make the player a less skilled NWN player. Nor does being a great PvP build make someone a less skilled RP player.

So no - you cannot reduce pretty much every complaint about PvP down to unwillingness to invest the time required to learn how. For myself, I make builds that are subpar in PvP because they build dynamically from their growth as they are RPed - I have had over a decade of powerbuilds in NWN and by these days I find dynamic builds to be more satisfying for 99% of RP. While I engage in PvP because it fits my RP to aid my allies, I know I'm going to get stomped over and over and over again (3 times now!) because someone can kill me in 2-3 hits with a greatsword after knocking me flat. Those losses have continued to shape my character, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is fun to always lose (especially when we have double the numbers). Fortunately stab-eachother PvP has been rather limited in the time I've played here, and I get to continue enjoying not being dead on a regular basis.

Most level 30s will trump lower levels, so even if you power build and can be a fighter using timestop or every buff under the sun, even if you can kill someone your level in 1-3 hits - there will be someone stronger until you finish the grind to 30. One shouldn't -have- to grind and powerbuild so that they can RP and have fun and have conflict with others. PvP can inspire RP, but too much PvP, or PvP done poorly too often will result in people hiding in safe havens (like Myon, or behind a locked gate, or in houses) and avoiding the conflict all together.

Which is already happening.

[Stath]

if you quake in terror and comply with the big bad guy, I've found that your odds of survival increase by much! Act like a proud person who ain't afraid of anything and of course you will be tested.

This. The majority of players make this mistake of assuming "Wow, this evil character is being very aggressive. Clearly the player of this character just wants to kill my character.", or "Wow, this evil character will ALWAYS act like this and the entire interaction they want from my character is to be grovelling, constantly, no matter how much interaction we do."

This is not the case. The context of the big bag evil character's actions and attitude should be considered and given empathy, not just labelled as pride and powergaming by their player. Unless it's at the end of a very long time of mutual story telling and interaction across many different meetings, i can almost guarantee that before every single PVP fight, an out is given.

Most players don't recognize outs, because they just assume that they're threats. Usually it's done quite well, letting pvp be avoided if a player doesn't want it but still letting their character not have to break "character". Sometimes it's more nuanced and will explore the character's personality and convictions, and truly test them.

The problem is most people will instantly assume the other side doesn't care about interactive roleplay, and will be quick to label them as someone who only wants to pvp. They then carry this mentality IC, or start roleplaying with them in a dismissive manner and treat it like it won't have consequences. Mouthing off to a half orc barbarian and refusing to do as he says as a freshly arrived level 5 is akin to clicking resist arrest in oblivion and then complaining the guards killed you like a wet mud crab.

You don't need to learn how to pvp on Arelith to NOT be pvped. You just need to temper your expectations and playstyle to the reality of what is happening IG.

[Mithreas]

You don't need to learn how to pvp on Arelith to NOT be pvped. You just need to temper your expectations and playstyle to the reality of what is happening IG.

This can work very well.

I played a Drow wizard to level 29, including getting heavily involved in the politics of old Udos Dro'Xun, an environment where PvP was a very frequent occurrence. I was involved in PvP precisely 3 times, once getting stomped when an epic mage took over the Sorcere by force and twice as the initiator when a lower level mage was openly challenging me.

The rest - including ending up running the Sorcere without being a member of any of the noble houses - was achieved without bloodshed. Flattery in the right place, making your value plain to others, having absolutely no morals or principles that couldn't be sacrificed in the name of survival (or, more accurately, *apparently* sacrificed), and careful choice of the right allies at the right times to protect you from the major powers that might decide to do you harm - those were the tools he used every day.

Navigating that environment was among the most fun I've had on the server. So it's absolutely possible to avoid PvP even when in an environment where lots of players really enjoy it. You just need to work out how to continue the story in other ways. And as the non-PvP-focused player, it's on you to figure out the alternate way to move the story forward.

[WanderingPoet]

if you quake in terror and comply with the big bad guy, I've found that your odds of survival increase by much! Act like a proud person who ain't afraid of anything and of course you will be tested.

The context of the big bag evil character's actions and attitude should be considered and given empathy, not just labelled as pride and powergaming by their player. Unless it's at the end of a very long time of mutual story telling and interaction across many different meetings, i can almost guarantee that before every single PVP fight, an out is given.

Anecdotally not always true - two of my three pvp deaths were after I surrendered to evil people. The first I surrendered and immediately got blasted to the ground. The second time I surrendered I had a dragon dropped on my head and my character was dismembered while he was on his knees after 5 minutes of RP. Both times my corpse was also bashed afterwards.

Not that I think this happens to everyone - but it does mean my character will never surrender again because the two times he tried he was murdered. Poor luck - but it wasn't the further RP I was hoping for!