Soooo...ever since I discovered that DPS meter thingy, I'v been opsessing about the highest DPS build.
Not long after, I'v come up with a gimpy build of sorts. Anyho here it goes:
Kensai Human Fig 4/Rogue 19/ WM 7
STR: 19
DEX: 13
CON: 16
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8
Fig 1. WF Greatsword, dodge, expertise
Fig 2. Mobility
Fig 3. Knockdown
Rog 4.
Rog 5.
Rog 6. Spring Attack
Rog 7.
Rog 8.
Rog 9. Whirlwind
WM 10.
WM 11.
WM 12. Improved Critical
WM 13.
WM 14.
WM 15. Blind Fight
WM 16.
Rog 17.
Rog 18. Improved Knockdown/Improved Expertise/Toughness
Rog 19.
Rog 20. Crippling Strike
Rog 21. EWF Greatsword
Rog 22.
Rog 23. Improved Evasion
Fig 24. WS Greatsword, EWS Greatsword
Rog 25.
Rog 26.
Rog 27. Armor Skin, Slippery Mind
Rog 28.
Rog 29.
Rog 30. Epic Prowesse, Opportunist
AB at 30: 44
AC: Full plate, Dex armors are for ninnies (Addy all the waaay)
Skills: All over the place!
HP: Could be worse...atleast all gear goes into STR/CON
Saves: Meh, everyone dies someday, might aswell be from a dragon
And...well, Kensai, felt that it was appropriate for some reason.
So, what do you guys think, does this build even make sense?...all I see is big numbers, and it makes me grin like an idiot. And being an idiot, I'm probably not seeing all the bad things about it. On a sidenote, how viable is sneak attack in endgame?
Oh and heres a Comparison for Sneak attack DPR and non-sneak attack DPR.
(The calculation doesn't take into account the flanking +2AB bonus)
Silly Build - Silly DPS
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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Congratulations. You've re-invented the 2007 WM meta build. There's a reason they don't get built that way anymore, and it's not because we've slipped into a dark age and lost the wisdom of the ancients.
First, the survivability of the build is garbage. That said, you mentioned that you're optimizing for DPS, so I'm going to assume that being a probably 400-450 HP character with neither AC nor saving throws doesn't actually deter you, and will leave the small essay on why this is terrible for later, so that I can get to the why your DPS is actually worse than it should be parts of the analysis.
44 AB is low for a STR wm. Against most targets, AB translates directly into damage done, because even if you can reliably hit on your full AB attack, can you say the same for your second, third, and fourth attacks in a flurry? Most builds cannot. If you're optimizing for DPS, you most certainly want to get AB as high as it will go without skipping key damage feats. In this case, you're 4 or 5 AB short of where a more conventional greatsword weaponmaster will be. This means that you're missing an extra attack per turn on average against most opponents, and your crit rate is going to suffer badly (many attacks that would once have been sitting pretty at a 30-40% crit rate start suffering problems confirming the second roll, and the actual crit rate you'll see in game probably starts bottoming out for your 3rd and 4th attacks)
Low AB is particularly a problem with the rogue class (which you've taken a large amount of), because it's easy for a rogue to calculate average sneak attack damage at something like 65, multiply by 7 attacks per round, and assume that they've got the highest DPS in the game. And then they miss half of their attacks in any given round, while the fighter-heavy WM connects on basically everything, and so the rogue winds up being less survivable with a lower damage output.
Last fighter level is at 24, which means your disc will always be 6 points lower than it should be. This is huge, and you gain absolutely nothing from making this build error.
Cycling back to the too much rogue/not enough fighter problem: you've starved yourself to 4 fighter levels. This means that you're missing out on some important feats that are key for a WM that has decided to go full DPS route, such as overwhelming crit. It also drops your HP total, which means that you're not going to trade well against most opponents, when coupled with the poor AB mentioned above. Your DPS when dead is zero, and this build will die. A lot.
Your damage numbers rely very heavily on a 10d6 sneak dice. I'm assuming that the DPS meter you used generously assumes that you're just dishing an extra 35 damage a swing. This isn't the case. Many of Arelith's PvE adversaries are sneak immune, and outside of having a friend around to -guard you or KD, you don't have a really reliable way of securing sneak attacks. In PvP sneak attack damage is going to be less reliable.
tl;dr, you'll find that the moment you fight anything that's not a combat dummy, this build probably does less DPS than the 49 AB greatsword 20/7/3 WM, has lower HP, Saves, and AC, and is way more situational.
A couple of things jump out at me:milosr wrote:So, what do you guys think, does this build even make sense?...all I see is big numbers, and it makes me grin like an idiot. And being an idiot, I'm probably not seeing all the bad things about it.(besides the kensai)
First, the survivability of the build is garbage. That said, you mentioned that you're optimizing for DPS, so I'm going to assume that being a probably 400-450 HP character with neither AC nor saving throws doesn't actually deter you, and will leave the small essay on why this is terrible for later, so that I can get to the why your DPS is actually worse than it should be parts of the analysis.
44 AB is low for a STR wm. Against most targets, AB translates directly into damage done, because even if you can reliably hit on your full AB attack, can you say the same for your second, third, and fourth attacks in a flurry? Most builds cannot. If you're optimizing for DPS, you most certainly want to get AB as high as it will go without skipping key damage feats. In this case, you're 4 or 5 AB short of where a more conventional greatsword weaponmaster will be. This means that you're missing an extra attack per turn on average against most opponents, and your crit rate is going to suffer badly (many attacks that would once have been sitting pretty at a 30-40% crit rate start suffering problems confirming the second roll, and the actual crit rate you'll see in game probably starts bottoming out for your 3rd and 4th attacks)
Low AB is particularly a problem with the rogue class (which you've taken a large amount of), because it's easy for a rogue to calculate average sneak attack damage at something like 65, multiply by 7 attacks per round, and assume that they've got the highest DPS in the game. And then they miss half of their attacks in any given round, while the fighter-heavy WM connects on basically everything, and so the rogue winds up being less survivable with a lower damage output.
Last fighter level is at 24, which means your disc will always be 6 points lower than it should be. This is huge, and you gain absolutely nothing from making this build error.
Cycling back to the too much rogue/not enough fighter problem: you've starved yourself to 4 fighter levels. This means that you're missing out on some important feats that are key for a WM that has decided to go full DPS route, such as overwhelming crit. It also drops your HP total, which means that you're not going to trade well against most opponents, when coupled with the poor AB mentioned above. Your DPS when dead is zero, and this build will die. A lot.
Your damage numbers rely very heavily on a 10d6 sneak dice. I'm assuming that the DPS meter you used generously assumes that you're just dishing an extra 35 damage a swing. This isn't the case. Many of Arelith's PvE adversaries are sneak immune, and outside of having a friend around to -guard you or KD, you don't have a really reliable way of securing sneak attacks. In PvP sneak attack damage is going to be less reliable.
tl;dr, you'll find that the moment you fight anything that's not a combat dummy, this build probably does less DPS than the 49 AB greatsword 20/7/3 WM, has lower HP, Saves, and AC, and is way more situational.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Dear god man, thats a more thorough analysis really expected out of this thread. Hats off to ya!
So, My intial idea was to have the AB close enough to that of a 1h WM, 2h helps to offset rogue levels.
I never really compared the build to a 2h WM, I find 2h WMs silly. So...in comparison to your run of the mill Scimi WM, I think I'm about... 1AB behind, two if we count their STR dip. So 2h is in essence a way to offset the lack of AB.
As for overwhelming critical... I always found its benefit somewhat dubious, +7 on a crit thats already 120 (I have to give 4 feats for that, and yet 2h threat is not 18-20!), so I figured a silly rogue dip might work out better.
Doing the numbers, apperantely its dmg per round is slightly under to that of your regular scimi build. Link (if we take off the haste, and sneak attacks)
So from what I gather...under the worst possible circuimstance, its almost equivalent to scimi DPS. Its saves and AC are utter trash. But I get to be a special snowflake, and live out my dream of making a "Rogue".
Oh and, lvl24 Fighter is me being stupid, and wanting wep spec asap.
So I guess we could say its...not OP, its just...silly?...and possibly silly fun?
But the real question being, can it be improved?
So, My intial idea was to have the AB close enough to that of a 1h WM, 2h helps to offset rogue levels.
I never really compared the build to a 2h WM, I find 2h WMs silly. So...in comparison to your run of the mill Scimi WM, I think I'm about... 1AB behind, two if we count their STR dip. So 2h is in essence a way to offset the lack of AB.
As for overwhelming critical... I always found its benefit somewhat dubious, +7 on a crit thats already 120 (I have to give 4 feats for that, and yet 2h threat is not 18-20!), so I figured a silly rogue dip might work out better.
Doing the numbers, apperantely its dmg per round is slightly under to that of your regular scimi build. Link (if we take off the haste, and sneak attacks)
So from what I gather...under the worst possible circuimstance, its almost equivalent to scimi DPS. Its saves and AC are utter trash. But I get to be a special snowflake, and live out my dream of making a "Rogue".
Oh and, lvl24 Fighter is me being stupid, and wanting wep spec asap.
So I guess we could say its...not OP, its just...silly?...and possibly silly fun?
But the real question being, can it be improved?
Last edited by milosr on Thu May 25, 2017 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gilescorey
- Posts: 1481
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Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
I don't know what kind of WM you're building, but scimitar WMs do not have 45 AB, or even 46 at 30.milosr wrote:I never really compared the build to a 2h WM, I find 2h WMs silly. So...in comparison to your run of the mill Scimi WM, I think I'm about... 1AB behind, two if we count their STR dip. So 2h is in essence a way to offset the lack of AB.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Your build VS Scim WM(No Sneak Attacks)
Your Build VS Scim WM(All attacks sneak)
It only out-DPS a scimitar WM if all your attacks are sneak attacks.
Edit: The sneak attacks are being multiplied by the criticals, so bear with me until I find a way to do it proper.
Edit 2: This calculator has no mean to add sneak attack damage without goofing it. But compared to a scimitar WM, you get 35 average damage per sneak while they get 0(if bard) or 10.5(if rogue).
Your Build VS Scim WM(All attacks sneak)
It only out-DPS a scimitar WM if all your attacks are sneak attacks.
Edit: The sneak attacks are being multiplied by the criticals, so bear with me until I find a way to do it proper.
Edit 2: This calculator has no mean to add sneak attack damage without goofing it. But compared to a scimitar WM, you get 35 average damage per sneak while they get 0(if bard) or 10.5(if rogue).
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Yeah, I knew it was a bit too good to be true.
Fixed the calculation, this time sneak attacks dont go into crits.
Also a question, why 3d6 sneak attack on scimi wm, dont they just do a 3 level dip?
Also did you just assume that the scimi WM would have mdanask with keen?
For my calculation I just put that both have regular mdamask with essence and temp essence.
Actual dmg with sneaks vs scimi wm
And just cause I like using the calculator, no sneaks on both sides.
Link
Anyways I was thinking...the build is 6fort behind your typical wm. If I push 2 more fighter levels in epics, and take epic fort, it would be 2 fort behind. Is that even legit?...sure I lose out on 1 sneak dice, but will it in theory allow the build to survive epic content fort rolls?
Fixed the calculation, this time sneak attacks dont go into crits.
Also a question, why 3d6 sneak attack on scimi wm, dont they just do a 3 level dip?
Also did you just assume that the scimi WM would have mdanask with keen?
For my calculation I just put that both have regular mdamask with essence and temp essence.
Actual dmg with sneaks vs scimi wm
And just cause I like using the calculator, no sneaks on both sides.
Link
Anyways I was thinking...the build is 6fort behind your typical wm. If I push 2 more fighter levels in epics, and take epic fort, it would be 2 fort behind. Is that even legit?...sure I lose out on 1 sneak dice, but will it in theory allow the build to survive epic content fort rolls?
Last edited by milosr on Thu May 25, 2017 6:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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High Primate
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:25 pm
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
All things considered, the 20/7/3 scimitar weapon master is overall the most damaging-dealing build in the meta right now.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Your calculations still have the calculator multiply the sneak damage.
I took your same numbers and put the sneak attack under direct damage instead, and the results are the same.
The 3d6 was a mistake on my part.
I took your same numbers and put the sneak attack under direct damage instead, and the results are the same.
The 3d6 was a mistake on my part.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
They do multiply, I just subtract them later from crits, basically did -105 on crit dmg. About sums it up.
Anyho, dmg ain't that bad I suppose. But can we improve the build somehow?...and not make it into a scimi wm.
And just for the kicks, compared to a greatsword WM, not like they actually exist.
Link
Possible improvements, anyone?
Edit: Both our graphs are wrong, we didnt take into account that sneak applies on top of crit too, we just removed it altogether. In essence instead of -105(35*3)on crit it should be -70. All the conclusions still hold, sven with added dmg. Build still needs work.
Anyho, dmg ain't that bad I suppose. But can we improve the build somehow?...and not make it into a scimi wm.
And just for the kicks, compared to a greatsword WM, not like they actually exist.
Link
Possible improvements, anyone?
Edit: Both our graphs are wrong, we didnt take into account that sneak applies on top of crit too, we just removed it altogether. In essence instead of -105(35*3)on crit it should be -70. All the conclusions still hold, sven with added dmg. Build still needs work.
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miesny_jez
- Posts: 757
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- Location: Ireland (Poland)
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Whats Your opinions about CoT/Wm/Fighter or CoT/WM/Rogue build - of course ST focus not CH.
I was always thinking about them as an interesting alternative for a staple 20/7/3. Also gives an interesting religious avenue without limiting Yourself to Paly-RP.
With some base CH at lets say 12 and a total of 18 CH you are getting some nice (though temporary) buff to both damage and attack without gimping Yourself too much I suppose.
And I have a hunch (though did not run through numbers) that a ST-based BG/WM/Fighter build should be able to outdamage a straight 20/7/3 thanks to additional summon.
I was always thinking about them as an interesting alternative for a staple 20/7/3. Also gives an interesting religious avenue without limiting Yourself to Paly-RP.
With some base CH at lets say 12 and a total of 18 CH you are getting some nice (though temporary) buff to both damage and attack without gimping Yourself too much I suppose.
And I have a hunch (though did not run through numbers) that a ST-based BG/WM/Fighter build should be able to outdamage a straight 20/7/3 thanks to additional summon.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
For CoT that boost is only once per rest, and you dont get access to turn undead and that lovely cha-> dmg/str. You do get a lobely boost to saves, and thats pretty much the only good tbing about it. You are lacking 2ac that scimi wm would get from fighter levels. Plus you have to gimp your str/con to dip into some Cha. Also gear would be a mess with cha,str and con.
But a blackguard WM, sure sounds legit, except I really hate that summon, if you make a surfacer you practically cant use it without having godlike bluff.The bad side of it is you cant take rogue/bard, meaning no umd/tumble dump, so -3AC or more and can only buff with pots.
Unless you are silly and do 8 Rogue/7WM/15Blackguard. No epic summon, and no weapon specialization. And...bad AB, unless you use a 2h. Not even I am that silly!
But a blackguard WM, sure sounds legit, except I really hate that summon, if you make a surfacer you practically cant use it without having godlike bluff.The bad side of it is you cant take rogue/bard, meaning no umd/tumble dump, so -3AC or more and can only buff with pots.
Unless you are silly and do 8 Rogue/7WM/15Blackguard. No epic summon, and no weapon specialization. And...bad AB, unless you use a 2h. Not even I am that silly!
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miesny_jez
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- Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:03 am
- Location: Ireland (Poland)
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Well I tried to make a quick run down build with the Blackguard:
Mr: Big Bad Sword
Header Class Race Blackguard(16), Weapon Master(7), Fighter(7), Human
Abilies STR: 17 (26) {Gifted to 19}
DEX: 13
CON: 14 (16) {Gifted to 16}
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8
0 30 Human: (Quick to Master)
1 F 01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
2 F 02: Fighter(2): Knockdown
3 F 03: Fighter(3): Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 F 04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, (STR=20)
5 F 05: Fighter(5)
6 F 06: Fighter(6): Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
7 WM 07: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Greatsword
8 WM 08: Weapon Master(2): STR+1, (STR=21)
9 WM 09: Weapon Master(3): Power Attack
10 WM 10: Weapon Master(4)
11 WM 11: Weapon Master(5)
12 WM 12: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, Cleave, (STR=22)
13 WM 13: Weapon Master(7)
14 BG 14: Blackguard(1)
15 BG 15: Blackguard(2): Improved Critical: Greatsword, {Smite Good}
16 BG 16: Blackguard(3): STR+1, (STR=23)
17 BG 17: Blackguard(4)
18 BG 18: Blackguard(5): Blind Fight
19 BG 19: Blackguard(6)
20 BG 20: Blackguard(7): STR+1, (STR=24)
21 BG 21: Blackguard(8): Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword
22 BG 22: Blackguard(9)
23 BG 23: Blackguard(10)
24 F 24: Fighter(7): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, (STR=25)
25 BG 25: Blackguard(11)
26 BG 26: Blackguard(12)
27 BG 27: Blackguard(13): Great Cleave, Epic Prowess
28 BG 28: Blackguard(14): STR+1, (STR=26)
29 BG 29: Blackguard(15)
30 BG 30: Blackguard(16): Overwhelming Critical: Greatsword, Epic Fiendish Servant
We are ending up with AB: 47 at lvl 30 and standard +3 weapon. Not as high as 49.. but I would say doable especially with a constant summon which could produce Flanking bonus. 5d6 Sneak Attack and Use Poison included of course.
AC would be of course lower then a tumble-dump build, and not really practical with a two-weapon scenario sadly.
But I think it certainly should be doable and with changes to Kensai which allows usage of class abilities You could even go for Kensai for +Saves and Haste/Freedom.
Edit:
Hmm.. Taunt is also a class skill for Blackguard maybe worth to consider as well.
Mr: Big Bad Sword
Header Class Race Blackguard(16), Weapon Master(7), Fighter(7), Human
Abilies STR: 17 (26) {Gifted to 19}
DEX: 13
CON: 14 (16) {Gifted to 16}
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8
0 30 Human: (Quick to Master)
1 F 01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
2 F 02: Fighter(2): Knockdown
3 F 03: Fighter(3): Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 F 04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, (STR=20)
5 F 05: Fighter(5)
6 F 06: Fighter(6): Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
7 WM 07: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Greatsword
8 WM 08: Weapon Master(2): STR+1, (STR=21)
9 WM 09: Weapon Master(3): Power Attack
10 WM 10: Weapon Master(4)
11 WM 11: Weapon Master(5)
12 WM 12: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, Cleave, (STR=22)
13 WM 13: Weapon Master(7)
14 BG 14: Blackguard(1)
15 BG 15: Blackguard(2): Improved Critical: Greatsword, {Smite Good}
16 BG 16: Blackguard(3): STR+1, (STR=23)
17 BG 17: Blackguard(4)
18 BG 18: Blackguard(5): Blind Fight
19 BG 19: Blackguard(6)
20 BG 20: Blackguard(7): STR+1, (STR=24)
21 BG 21: Blackguard(8): Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword
22 BG 22: Blackguard(9)
23 BG 23: Blackguard(10)
24 F 24: Fighter(7): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, (STR=25)
25 BG 25: Blackguard(11)
26 BG 26: Blackguard(12)
27 BG 27: Blackguard(13): Great Cleave, Epic Prowess
28 BG 28: Blackguard(14): STR+1, (STR=26)
29 BG 29: Blackguard(15)
30 BG 30: Blackguard(16): Overwhelming Critical: Greatsword, Epic Fiendish Servant
We are ending up with AB: 47 at lvl 30 and standard +3 weapon. Not as high as 49.. but I would say doable especially with a constant summon which could produce Flanking bonus. 5d6 Sneak Attack and Use Poison included of course.
AC would be of course lower then a tumble-dump build, and not really practical with a two-weapon scenario sadly.
But I think it certainly should be doable and with changes to Kensai which allows usage of class abilities You could even go for Kensai for +Saves and Haste/Freedom.
Edit:
Hmm.. Taunt is also a class skill for Blackguard maybe worth to consider as well.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
I was bored so I compared yours to mine (modified version, with less dmg)
Let the pissing contest begin!
Link
And umm...I think you need to squeeze in epic fort there. Just saying, sitting on your bottom all day and watching a dragon kill you very slowly is annoying.
Let the pissing contest begin!
Link
And umm...I think you need to squeeze in epic fort there. Just saying, sitting on your bottom all day and watching a dragon kill you very slowly is annoying.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
So I listened what you guys said.
Tried to fix HP.
Tried to fix AB.
Tried to fix Saves.
This is the result...
NOT a Kensai
Human Rogue 15/Fighter 8/WM 7
STR:19
DEX:13
CON:16
INT:13
WIS:8
CHA:8
--------
Fig 1. Dodge, WF Greatsword, Expertise
Fig 2. Mobility
Fig 3. Knockdown
Rog 4.
Rog 5.
Rog 6. Spring Attack
Fig 7. Whirlwind
WM 8.
WM 9. Improved Critical
WM 10.
WM 11.
WM 12. Blind Fight
WM 13.
WM 14.
Rog 15. Great Fortitude
Rog 16.
Rog 17.
Fig 18. Improved Expertise/Toughness (Do I need HP or Armor?)
Rog 19.
Rog 20.
Rog 21. EWF: Greatsword
Rog 22. Crippling Strike
Rog 23.
Fig 24. WS: Greatsword, EWS: Greatsword
Rog 25.
Rog 26. Opportunist
Fig 27. Armor Skin/Epic Fort
Rog 28.
Rog 29.
Fig 30. Armor Skin/Epic Fort, Epic Prowess
Highlights
--------------------------------
BAB:18 (might aswell be 20, since 2h)
AB: 46 (~same as Scimi WM)
Sneak: 8d6
AC: 1 less than Scimi WM without shield, 7-8 less than Scimi WM with a shield (if I use a 2h, and Scimi WM uses a shield)
HP: Just counting HD, this is NOT effective Health:
270HD vs 300HD, If Scimi WM takes toughness too then 270HD vs 330HD
Saves: Same, if Scimi WM takes epic fort
Disc: 4-14 less than Scimi WM (depending on Scimi WM taking ESF:Disc)
Skills: 90 more skill points than Scimi WM!!!! (Unlock,Disarm,Search,UMD, woo!)
Crippling strike, need I say more?
You'll have to trust me on this:
Dmg: 20-25% better than Scimi WM
Dmg: 8-10% better than Scimi WM, if both don't have sneak attacks
Dmg: 5.5% better than Scimi WM, vs undead (Not sure if I did this one right)
NOT useless against sneak attack immune mobs!
Brownie points for making a Rogue into a non-masochistic experience.
--------------------------------
So...opinions...feedback, anything at all?
Tried to fix HP.
Tried to fix AB.
Tried to fix Saves.
This is the result...
NOT a Kensai
Human Rogue 15/Fighter 8/WM 7
STR:19
DEX:13
CON:16
INT:13
WIS:8
CHA:8
--------
Fig 1. Dodge, WF Greatsword, Expertise
Fig 2. Mobility
Fig 3. Knockdown
Rog 4.
Rog 5.
Rog 6. Spring Attack
Fig 7. Whirlwind
WM 8.
WM 9. Improved Critical
WM 10.
WM 11.
WM 12. Blind Fight
WM 13.
WM 14.
Rog 15. Great Fortitude
Rog 16.
Rog 17.
Fig 18. Improved Expertise/Toughness (Do I need HP or Armor?)
Rog 19.
Rog 20.
Rog 21. EWF: Greatsword
Rog 22. Crippling Strike
Rog 23.
Fig 24. WS: Greatsword, EWS: Greatsword
Rog 25.
Rog 26. Opportunist
Fig 27. Armor Skin/Epic Fort
Rog 28.
Rog 29.
Fig 30. Armor Skin/Epic Fort, Epic Prowess
Highlights
--------------------------------
BAB:18 (might aswell be 20, since 2h)
AB: 46 (~same as Scimi WM)
Sneak: 8d6
AC: 1 less than Scimi WM without shield, 7-8 less than Scimi WM with a shield (if I use a 2h, and Scimi WM uses a shield)
HP: Just counting HD, this is NOT effective Health:
270HD vs 300HD, If Scimi WM takes toughness too then 270HD vs 330HD
Saves: Same, if Scimi WM takes epic fort
Disc: 4-14 less than Scimi WM (depending on Scimi WM taking ESF:Disc)
Skills: 90 more skill points than Scimi WM!!!! (Unlock,Disarm,Search,UMD, woo!)
Crippling strike, need I say more?
You'll have to trust me on this:
Dmg: 20-25% better than Scimi WM
Dmg: 8-10% better than Scimi WM, if both don't have sneak attacks
Dmg: 5.5% better than Scimi WM, vs undead (Not sure if I did this one right)
NOT useless against sneak attack immune mobs!
Brownie points for making a Rogue into a non-masochistic experience.
--------------------------------
So...opinions...feedback, anything at all?
Last edited by milosr on Thu May 25, 2017 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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One Two Three Five
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
I... don't know if I trust those numbers, but as mentioned earlier: Rogue-heavy WM is like, an NWN staple, from back before segments of the server veered off from NWN. It's still a staple elsewhere. It's also not standard practice here (and for my money, a rogue/monk/fighter is a 'better' rogue, for the purpose of rogue-ery) for a number of reasons that someone with more time can get into, surely. If you actually intend to play it, I'd move improved expertise to a much lower level. Like 3.
I don't want to rain on your parade or anything, but it's not exactly like this is new ground being treaded.
I don't want to rain on your parade or anything, but it's not exactly like this is new ground being treaded.
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.The devil does not need any more advocates
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Believe it or not, it is for me, as I didn't see the builds of this type at all so far...
And whenever I tried to make a Rogue, its AB would be laughable, or its base dmg would be quite terrible, making it only do dmg when it can sneak attack.
So yeah...I'm not asking for a medal, I'm just asking if this stuff seems legit from the optimization perspective. (Perhaps the Name of the topic is not appropriate)
And whenever I tried to make a Rogue, its AB would be laughable, or its base dmg would be quite terrible, making it only do dmg when it can sneak attack.
So yeah...I'm not asking for a medal, I'm just asking if this stuff seems legit from the optimization perspective. (Perhaps the Name of the topic is not appropriate)
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
No, it isn't legit from an optimization perspective.
It would be passable if you swapped to dual wielding to maximize sneak attack damage.
It would be passable if you swapped to dual wielding to maximize sneak attack damage.
Re: Silly Build - Silly DPS
Right, I fidgeted around with it, to see how it looks with dual wield.
Double-sided weapon naturally.
Due to Dual wield: Effective AB is now 44 instead of 46
Swapped CON gift for DEX gift (Only way to do it without losing AB, maybe possible with Half Orc?)
Feats that had to go:
Rog 15. Great Fortitude -> Ambidex
Fig 18. Improved Expertise/Toughness -> Dual Wield
Fig 27. Armor Skin/Epic Fort -> Improved dual wield
Basically...Build loses 2-4 CON, and its fort saves get into trash territory with a whooping -6 hit.
But I gotta say, the calculations (If you trust them) are quite something:
Link
And just because I don't feel lazy, dual wield vs scimi:
Link
Some Sidenotes:
Dual wield without sneak attacks does as much dmg as the 2h build. But loses out to it on higher AC levels.
Dual wield without sneak attacks does about the same dmg as a scimi build. But loses out to it on higher AC levels.
So, situational DMG boost is quite silly(19-20%) but...in your opinion guys, is the 20% boost worth losing the HP and 6 Fort?
Or should I get rid of one more sneak attack, in favor of more feats?
Double-sided weapon naturally.
Due to Dual wield: Effective AB is now 44 instead of 46
Swapped CON gift for DEX gift (Only way to do it without losing AB, maybe possible with Half Orc?)
Feats that had to go:
Rog 15. Great Fortitude -> Ambidex
Fig 18. Improved Expertise/Toughness -> Dual Wield
Fig 27. Armor Skin/Epic Fort -> Improved dual wield
Basically...Build loses 2-4 CON, and its fort saves get into trash territory with a whooping -6 hit.
But I gotta say, the calculations (If you trust them) are quite something:
Link
And just because I don't feel lazy, dual wield vs scimi:
Link
Some Sidenotes:
Dual wield without sneak attacks does as much dmg as the 2h build. But loses out to it on higher AC levels.
Dual wield without sneak attacks does about the same dmg as a scimi build. But loses out to it on higher AC levels.
So, situational DMG boost is quite silly(19-20%) but...in your opinion guys, is the 20% boost worth losing the HP and 6 Fort?
Or should I get rid of one more sneak attack, in favor of more feats?