Gish Builds

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One Two Three Five
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Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:57 am

Barring battlebards, how possible are they here?
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BlossomSeason
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by BlossomSeason » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:26 pm

They're utterly non-viable due to how dispel works in vanilla NWN.

Until you cast a spell from your character spellbook, the game uses your total character level as the caster level for dispel purposes. So a level 30 mundane using wands, potions etc will always have a caster level of 30.

Gish/Spellsword builds theoretically combine the buffs of a spellcaster class with the combat ability of a melee-oriented class. The problem is that your low caster levels will mean that all your buffs will be easily stripped from you with dispels and you'll find yourself crippled.

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Re: Gish Builds

Post by earthsong309 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Really wish there was an arcane warrior type subclass here on Arelith, but alas, just have to make a bard or (eugh) a melee-focused warlock.

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Re: Gish Builds

Post by condotierri » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:10 pm

The whole using CL for wand's and potion's strength and duration is one of the biggest exploits/bugs to date on Arelith. Anyways, back to OP's question:

Dispel is capped in Arelith to 20 levels, so if you want to make some sort of fighter/mage you could think about taking Arcane Defense Abjuration to give you +X to defend against dispels. They are just hard to balance due to AB and dispel issues.

My best suggestion is going mage heavy and to have around 30+ ab. For PvE most things can be hit with 30 ab except bosses, but then you have magic as a backup.

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Re: Gish Builds

Post by auramin » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:12 pm

earthsong309 wrote:Really wish there was an arcane warrior type subclass here on Arelith, but alas, just have to make a bard or (eugh) a melee-focused warlock.
As in Eldritch knight ?

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earthsong309
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by earthsong309 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:45 pm

auramin wrote:
earthsong309 wrote:Really wish there was an arcane warrior type subclass here on Arelith, but alas, just have to make a bard or (eugh) a melee-focused warlock.
As in Eldritch knight ?
Yeah.

Blackguard currently fills the latter role for fiendlocks. The stat spread on a melee feylock build is a bit absurd (str, con, and at least 16 cha) and maybe not achievable after the nerf to gifts.

Only real spell-sword build is bard, but the bard class spells are, in my opinion, rather situational and underwhelming and don't carry the "arcane" feel that a true spell-sword should.

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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:53 pm

I wonder if you could do a druid gish build to any level of success. I suppose it would have the same pitfalls as a battlecleric.

You could try to spin it as a druid/fighter or some such, and try not to rely on buffs, and instead use Stonehold etc to try to lockdown mobs then sweep in with a greatsword.
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Mouthy Expert » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:59 pm

At this point I'm just waiting for haks to add a legit gish class. Speaking of, would haks be able to change that whole caster level wand thing?

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Re: Gish Builds

Post by DarkDreamer » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:32 pm

Hacks would enable other PrC classes to be added!

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:26 pm

Yowza. So basically bard or nothing. Cool, thanks yall.
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Kirito » Mon May 22, 2017 3:08 pm

1 month isn't necro right?

Wouldn't it be possible to add spellcasting to a fighter in similar way to druid's spontaneous summons?

or quite simply, tweak the bard/warlock a little?

It would have to be a preset list of spells and be cast like sorcerers (no picking spells during prep etc) but that sounds like a somewhat reasonable half way house?

Give things like mage armour/magic missile/acid sheath/burning hands/fireball with number of casts per day per level = int. bonus?

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:11 am

ahem-hem-hem..
So. Any changes?
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Hunter548
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:14 am

No.

They're still bad.

Play a bard or a cleric.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:15 am

Rofl. Yea, figures.
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Peppermint
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:07 am

One of their major issues is that the arcane spell list just doesn't synergize well.

You could do Wizard 26/Monk 4 shapechange cheese or something though, I suppose.

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gilescorey
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by gilescorey » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:08 am

Keep in mind that Shapechange is also on the Druid spell list, and their BAB is already 3/4.

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Peppermint
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Peppermint » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:10 am

Yes, but mages get Epic Mage Armor. OP OP!

(I'm not seriously suggesting this build, but it's the only thing I can think of that would be remotely useful. Sort of. If you really wanted to.)

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gilescorey
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by gilescorey » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 am

druids get monk dip

=)

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Mithreas
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Mithreas » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:28 am

Yeah, gish builds are still well short of top tier, but there are at least more options that don't completely suck now. Wizard splashing 4 PDK levels for the 4th attack and Vanguard path gets some nice bonuses, but you'll probably be playing with Still Spell.
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:30 am

Dropping someone's AC by 15 points is pretty funny, but less useful from a spellsword standpoint than a group buff standpoint. (Combine that with a curse song and a good taunt from an ally, woo)
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Mithreas » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:33 am

The int bonus to attack and damage off Oath is the key boon for a spellsword.
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:35 am

Mithreas wrote:Yeah, gish builds are still well short of top tier, but there are at least more options that don't completely suck now.
See, I wouldn't even put it at like tier 3. It sucks hard. Your AB will be bad outside of PDK abilities. Your damage will be bad outside of PDK abilities. Your HP will be lackluster. Your saves will be lacking. You'll end up being a wizard who builds specifically for fighting and fighting'll be a nice party trick for stuff half your level and casting'll be your primary weapon -- Except your casting has trouble getting through SR, doesn't last as long, etc etc etc.

It's just really really bad.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:54 am

I can think of a few ways to more or less salvage it, but man this sort of setup would've been nicer with weavemaster for infinite tensers.

Hell, if Tensers wasn't a polymorph it'd be useable on a 'normal' gish setup.
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by Wytchee » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:55 am

Make each focus in divination increase the duration of True Strike by 9 seconds, or make Tenser's Transformation not a polymorph.

There, spellswords viable. :P
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Re: Gish Builds

Post by kittenblackfriends » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:39 am

Wytchee wrote:Make each focus in divination increase the duration of True Strike by 9 seconds, or make Tenser's Transformation not a polymorph.

There, spellswords viable. :P
Oh boy, my divine might build just got THAT much more viable!!!
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