Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

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Zavandar
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Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:20 pm

Hello,

I'm thinking of making a 20/10 monk/rogue that uses a quarterstaff. I know unarmed is usually better, but I just really want to use a quarterstaff. I also wanted to know if my math is right on their attack progression.

The build:
Human
9/17/14/14/12/8 (9/19/16/14/12/8 after DEX/CON ecl)
All ability points into DEX

lvl 1 rogue 1 expertise, improved expertise
lvl 2 rogue 2
lvl 3 rogue 3 weapon finesse
lvl 4 monk 1
lvl 5 monk 2
lvl 6 monk 3 two weapon fighnting
lvl 7 monk 4
lvl 8 monk 5
lvl 9 monk 6 ambidexterity
lvl 10 monk 7
lvl 11 monk 8
lvl 12 monk 9 weapon focus
lvl 13 rogue 4
lvl 14 monk 10
lvl 15 monk 11 improved two weapon fighting
lvl 16 monk 12
lvl 17 monk 13
lvl 18 monk 14 blind fight
lvl 19 monk 15
lvl 20 monk 16
lvl 21 rogue 5 epic weapon focus
lvl 22 monk 17
lvl 23 monk 18
lvl 24 rogue 6 armor skin
lvl 25 rogue 7
lvl 26 rogue 8
lvl 27 rogue 9 esf: discipline
lvl 28 monk 19
lvl 29 rogue 10
lvl 30 monk 20 epic dodge

Skills are discipline, hide/ms, parry, spellcraft (crossclass), spot, tumble. I also put some into open lock, disable trap, 21 in umd, and dump into heal.

I know the build lacks improved critical as well as epic prowess, but I can't think of any way to put them in.

So my first question: with this stat spread and feat selection, I believe my AB (with a greensteel quarterstaff) would be 42/39/36/33/30 and my off-hand attacks would be 42/39. Is this math correct?

Second question is more open ended: any tweaks that people think should be made? Again, I know q-staff isn't necessarily ideal, so I'm not looking for "Well why don't you play X instead?"

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:22 pm

I really like Q-staff myself. How married to the 20m/10r split are you?
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gilescorey
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by gilescorey » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Don't do 20/10 as anything but a fist monk. You should look into kama monk builds, and repurpose them for quarterstaff usage with some minor swaps of focus and specialisation. Keep in mind m-damask quarterstaves exist now.

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Zavandar
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm

So you're suggesting 19/6/5 rogue/monk/fighter instead?
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gilescorey
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by gilescorey » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:43 pm

Yeah. The point of quarterstaff monks is the same one behind kama rogues - that is to use the 10 APR you get hasted to slam ginormous amounts of sneak damage down.

Twenty levels of monk and ten levels of rogue only get 10 APR with a divine power scroll up and haste both, and their sneak damage is a piddly five dice.

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Zavandar
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:44 pm

Q-staff can't get 10 attacks anyway. You can't use flurry with it.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Shadofury » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:48 pm

and not boosting your wisdom limits your monk skills instead of con

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Zavandar
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:55 pm

30 health and 1 fort save vs. 1 AC, 1 will (irrelevant at 20 monk), and one DC for stunning fist/quivering palm (33 instead of 32).

Pros and cons to both, but I see your point.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by gilescorey » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:04 pm

Well, that's true but ultimately pedantry. Nine then, since I'm unused to quarterstaves being a viable option (used to thinking in kama mode) - ultimately the core of my point is the same. The trade off of quarterstaff versus kama is quarterstaff gets a bonus two AB from two handed bonus and the option to utilise improved disarm if you're so inclined, versus kama getting the ability to use flurry.

Personal taste, really.

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Zavandar
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:14 pm

I have a few issues with 19/6/5 as well.

What is the level progression? Do you take 6 monk pre-epic and get a screwy BAB progression?

Do you wait until 29 to take your 6th monk level for max discipline? If so, that means waiting until then for imp kd. Or do you get 6th monk at 22 and take your 5th fighter at 27 (for epic weapon spec) but have less discipline?

What's wrong with, say, 19/3/8? Gets the same amount of feats if you're going the imp kd route. The only drawback I can think of is less movement speed.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Freyason » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:57 am

19/3/8 which is the route I looked at too (to get KD earlier) is also 1 less ac from 5 monk

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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Lorkas » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:39 pm

Freyason wrote:19/3/8 which is the route I looked at too (to get KD earlier) is also 1 less ac from 5 monk
Looking out over for myself, 19/3/8 can pick up armour skin more easily, so it might edge out the 19/6/5 on AC. The problem is that the 19/6/5 has to take Epic Weapon Specialization as a general feat instead of getting a fighter bonus feat to take it on.

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Zavandar
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Zavandar » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:47 pm

If the build goes the imp disarm route, it makes some defensive sacrifices. As in, no expertise. That comes down to what role I'd want to fill. The build isn't completely defenseless. It does get parry and epic dodge, so it's decent in 1v1.

As far as pvp goes, the build's a time stop killer. Not that I see the character concept I have in mind getting into too much pvp.

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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by dallion43 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:23 pm

1. Improved disarm with a large weapon(considering medium weapon on target average) is a waste for a monk, more so, if the monk has relevant sneak damage bonus. A successful Improved Knok gets the target to a prone position. -AC, sneak attacks go thru. 2 free feats vs 2 spent. So go min 6 monk and forget about disarm.
Consider a stack of TS scrolls + I.knok due to more attacks per round + sneak damage.
Regardless otherwise you won't reliably disarm or knok no one.
2. Forget about Imp. expertise feats, even in PvE their use is limited. With low fighter lvls every feat counts.
3. 2con>2wiz. Stun DC is lacking regardless, slippery mind takes care of will saves, 1 AC for non focused ac build is worth less then 30 hp and 1 fort.
4. 6 fighter(EFS), if going fighter, due to low damage since DEX based.
5. In PvE consider dex/wiz/con gear, PvP dex/con.
6. In PvP, Low AC = hit run tactics, flanking, Parry, consider ESF:Parry instead of ASkin.
7. Take improved crit. No a lot due to sneak but with +6 damage fighter +4 essence +weapon damage +1-3 str+parry damage(if counts in crit?should be), counts.
8. Make sure you test the build in the Arelith test module. Mainly due to how much SP is needed vs available, etc, etc.

Imho, of course.

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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Astral » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:05 pm

I'm not sold at all. If you got staff, better go 6 or 9 monk, 6 fighter, rogue all the rest.
Otherwise 20monk 10 rogue. The good old unarmed classic.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Sab1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:57 am

Why be a monk if one can't have glowy eyes?

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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by METAL BAWKSES » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:54 am

Sab1 wrote:Why be a monk if one can't have glowy eyes?
Truth.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:00 pm

Personal experience playing as a quarterstaff monk?

1. Improved Disarm is useful, but you'll really need to consider whether or not you want to burn 2 feats getting it. Its not essential, but it has its uses in pvp, and a handful of critters in pve.

2. 20 monk is a bad idea. You're going to need a lot of feats due to dual wielding (3 dual wielding feats, plus weapon finesse, plus a weapon focus are going to leave you a little feat starved) and all those extra monk levels aren't going to help you much. The MOST i'd recommend is 9 or 10 (imp. evasion and +10% movement speed at 9 or +1 base AC at 10) if you have the wiggle room in your build, but most people stop around 6.

3. If you're going DEX based, you're going to need rogue or assassin levels to deal reasonable damage.

4. You're going to seriously need to consider multiclassing with a full BAB class to raise your AB, especially if you're a dex based build that relies on sneaks. You need to use imp. knockdown a lot with those sorts of builds, and imp. knockdown isn't terribly useful with lower AB builds.

5. You really don't need improved crits for a dex quarterstaff monk. The boost is small (+5%) for a weapon that doesn't have great crits to begin with (x2) and doesn't really help with your main sources of damage (sneaks)

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:50 pm

- For the sake of your sanity, take at least 3 rogue fairly early for Uncanny Dodge, otherwise getting flatfooted can be a game over scenario pretty easily. Consider 13 rogue for Epic Dodge.

- 6 fighter is obviously nice for the damage, but look into 9 ranger as an alternative for the full BAB progression, free two-weapon feats, and other little cookies like woodland stride and spell focus access.

Possible build:
6 Monk/9 Ranger/15 Rogue
I'd honestly start with 3 ranger/3 monk/3 rogue to get the essentials early.
BAB will be 17 if you take all ranger pre-epic and don't do anything too screwy with pre-epic monk/rogue levels, which gives the full monk APR.
Free IKD, free two-weapon fighting feats, 8d6 sneak attack, 2 favored enemies, epic dodge as endgame cookie.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:49 pm

On a tangentially related topic, it's a bit of a shame that Blade Thirst only works on Slashing weapons. Otherwise we might see more quarterstaff-wielding rangers, which feels thematically appropriate.
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:32 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:On a tangentially related topic, it's a bit of a shame that Blade Thirst only works on Slashing weapons. Otherwise we might see more quarterstaff-wielding rangers, which feels thematically appropriate.
But then it wouldn't be BLADE thirst. =P
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by dallion43 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:39 am

1. Just out of curiosity, the following isn't try on Arelith?
In PvP PCs usually carry ~3 similar weapons(QS) against Disarm. If you can easily disarm 2-4 weapons from the target PC, just knok him to death, no?

2.
Zavandar wrote: So my first question: with this stat spread and feat selection, I believe my AB (with a greensteel quarterstaff)
Is should be 18-20 with greensteel, not that it necessary better choice then +6 damask. Not whole lot of course, but it is a pre-epic feat..there is room for IC. When going damage on a PC that is hmm.. squishy? Even 5% can make a difference. It is an add-on to a whole.
Also, is there a better feat to take pre 20? Considering toughness is already in?

3. Is there a difference in bab progression between 9 fighter and 9 ranger?
9 fighter = 5 feats extra(-3 for dual)-1(WS:quarterstaff) leaves one extra feat to use.
+2 damage vs 2 choose race VS +6 vs all.
Ranger Arelith Wiki: At level 6, acquire Animal Companion, and they gain +1 Dodge AC when they are dual wielding. Does not apply to double-sided weapons.
Take 10 fighter for +4 EWS:quarterstaff(Free feat+Max skills), 8d6 vs 7d6. +4(Const) vs +1d6(Sneak)
Plus all this:
+1 Discipline each 3 levels.
+1 Strength OR Dexterity each 10 levels.
The stat bonus is Strength unless the base Dexterity is larger than the other.
Armor AC Bonus (+1 at 5, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)
If there is something I am missing please tell me, I didn't build one on Arelith.

6 Monk(All pre 20)/10 Fighter(9 Pre20)/14 Rouge for example.

Imho, of course.

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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:52 am

dallion43 wrote:3. Is there a difference in bab progression between 9 fighter and 9 ranger?
9 fighter = 5 feats extra(-3 for dual)-1(WS:quarterstaff) leaves one extra feat to use.
+2 damage vs 2 choose race VS +6 vs all.
Ranger Arelith Wiki: At level 6, acquire Animal Companion, and they gain +1 Dodge AC when they are dual wielding. Does not apply to double-sided weapons.
Take 10 fighter for +4 EWS:quarterstaff(Free feat+Max skills), 8d6 vs 7d6. +4(Const) vs +1d6(Sneak)
Plus all this:
+1 Discipline each 3 levels.
+1 Strength OR Dexterity each 10 levels.
The stat bonus is Strength unless the base Dexterity is larger than the other.
Armor AC Bonus (+1 at 5, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)
If there is something I am missing please tell me, I didn't build one on Arelith.

6 Monk(All pre 20)/10 Fighter(9 Pre20)/14 Rouge for example.

Imho, of course.
You're right that fighter is the mechanically optimal choice, of course. The BAB is identical between fighter and ranger, the +6 damage from EWS can't be matched, and the dual-wield dodge AC doesn't apply. I maintain that I like ranger as a possibility for this, however. Depending on the character you're playing, tracking and the -track command can be very useful tools. Rangers on Arelith also get 6 skill points/lvl as opposed to the fighter's measly 2. That's 36 sp over 9 levels, enough to max out an extra skill (although with as many rogue levels as we're talking about, this may not be necessary).
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by Astral » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:51 pm

What about 10 monk, 4 rogue, 16 bg? With fists. NOT kensai. Not making this mistake again :P
Could have BG epic summon, improved evasion, reasonable sneak attack, divine might/shield, better saves than fighter, bonus movement speed, free cleave, imp kd, still mind, below average ab (but probably not terrible even for pvp) AND of course, style points for making 10th monk lvl build work somehow XD
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Re: Monk Quarterstaff Build Questions

Post by dallion43 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:06 pm

The basin was buffed a bit, but isn't the stats spread on a 10 monk, 4 rogue, 16 bg with divine shield/might will be a bit overwhelming?

Fists on a low lvl monk are lacking. No HIPS means sneak attacks are mainly knok.
Changing monk to 6 fighter and going full plate/shield strength/con/cha focus will be more optimal.

But yes, it can be a different monk, which is always great, similar to ranger lvls it opens RP options while not crippling the build by a whole lot.

Imho of course.

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