Hobgoblin AAs?

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Mouthy Expert
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Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Mouthy Expert » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:06 am

Since hobgoblin uses half-elf as a base, is it capable of taking AA levels? If so, what's the dm team's stance on it?

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by High Primate » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 am

You know in LOTR the goblins used to be elves? Just crossed my mind on reading this.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:00 am

^this is actually isn't entirely true. The notion of elves being corrupted and turned into goblins or orcs was something discovered in some of Tolkien's early notes and letters. However, it was never adopted or canonized in any of his official works.

This stems from the incongruous narrative problems it poses. Elves are immortal. When their physical bodies perish, if they do, their spirits still occupy the land of the Grey Havens. They still live on, and if you see Jimmy die at Helm's Deep, don't worry, Jimmy is still sipping wine and writing songs in the Grey Havens.
Elves cannot die and join Iluvatar. This is why they are jealous of men - who are mortal.

Anyways, if orcs/goblins were once elves - wouldn't they still be immortal? Or did something change? Who can change such thing besides Iluvatar himself?

Tolkien did not want to dig himself into that hole, so he never confirmed the origin of orcs. We still do not know. All we have are theories.

Just a fun fact.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by rusticcrow » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:34 am

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by gilescorey » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:12 am

rusticcrow wrote:NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!
We are all posting on the forums for an online server for a thirteen-closer-to-fourteen year old game.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Kuma » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:14 am

fifteen years

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by rusticcrow » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:32 am

12 years for me. Mea culpa.

But yes, a DM's word on this would be lovely.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by theCountofMonteCristo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:35 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:^this is actually isn't entirely true. The notion of elves being corrupted and turned into goblins or orcs was something discovered in some of Tolkien's early notes and letters. However, it was never adopted or canonized in any of his official works.
Except for in the Silmarillion it heavily implies it
Silmarillion wrote:"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
This is talking about the Elves who fled when Oromë came.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:This stems from the incongruous narrative problems it poses. Elves are immortal. When their physical bodies perish, if they do, their spirits still occupy the land of the Grey Havens. They still live on, and if you see Jimmy die at Helm's Deep, don't worry, Jimmy is still sipping wine and writing songs in the Grey Havens.
Elves cannot die and join Iluvatar. This is why they are jealous of men - who are mortal.
This is not true.

A) The Grey Havens are the ship yards in Middle Earth, west of the Shire, home of Cirdan the Shipwright. In Elven it is Mithlond
B) Elves spirits occupy the Halls of Mandos (Mandos being the elven word for "Prison", the Vala's original name before becoming the warden is Námo. So his renaming to Mandos is really calling him Jailer)
B sidenote) Originally Men went to Mandos as well, but this was later changed. The Book of Lost Tales talks about this, and even in the Silmarillion not all of this change was made fully. When Beren dies, Luthien goes to Mandos to retrieve him.
C) Jimmy is not sipping wine and writing songs in the Halls of Mandos. It's name should make it obvious.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Anyways, if orcs/goblins were once elves - wouldn't they still be immortal? Or did something change? Who can change such thing besides Iluvatar himself?
Who can create life besides Eru? Even when Aulë created the dwarves, they were little but automatrons, doing exactly as they were told. Only when Aulë raised his hammer to smash them did Eru give them life of their own and show Aulë they were cowering.

Balrogs were Maiar, Trolls were "made in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves" which, given the above implication, means they weren't created by Melkor either. The Spiders are the offspring of Ungoliant, which really leaves just Glaurung(Father of Dragons) as unexplained.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Tolkien did not want to dig himself into that hole, so he never confirmed the origin of orcs. We still do not know. All we have are theories.

Just a fun fact.
Yes, he was never specific, and there are a number of ideas, but its' always been pretty clear from a plain reading of the text what the Silmarillion had to say about the Orcs.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by gilescorey » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:48 am

Kuma wrote:fifteen years
shit, you're right
it's not 2016 now
uhhhhh

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by High Primate » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:52 am

theCountofMonteCristo wrote:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:^this is actually isn't entirely true. The notion of elves being corrupted and turned into goblins or orcs was something discovered in some of Tolkien's early notes and letters. However, it was never adopted or canonized in any of his official works.
Except for in the Silmarillion it heavily implies it
Silmarillion wrote:"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
This is talking about the Elves who fled when Oromë came.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:This stems from the incongruous narrative problems it poses. Elves are immortal. When their physical bodies perish, if they do, their spirits still occupy the land of the Grey Havens. They still live on, and if you see Jimmy die at Helm's Deep, don't worry, Jimmy is still sipping wine and writing songs in the Grey Havens.
Elves cannot die and join Iluvatar. This is why they are jealous of men - who are mortal.
This is not true.

A) The Grey Havens are the ship yards in Middle Earth, west of the Shire, home of Cirdan the Shipwright. In Elven it is Mithlond
B) Elves spirits occupy the Halls of Mandos (Mandos being the elven word for "Prison", the Vala's original name before becoming the warden is Námo. So his renaming to Mandos is really calling him Jailer)
B sidenote) Originally Men went to Mandos as well, but this was later changed. The Book of Lost Tales talks about this, and even in the Silmarillion not all of this change was made fully. When Beren dies, Luthien goes to Mandos to retrieve him.
C) Jimmy is not sipping wine and writing songs in the Halls of Mandos. It's name should make it obvious.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Anyways, if orcs/goblins were once elves - wouldn't they still be immortal? Or did something change? Who can change such thing besides Iluvatar himself?
Who can create life besides Eru? Even when Aulë created the dwarves, they were little but automatrons, doing exactly as they were told. Only when Aulë raised his hammer to smash them did Eru give them life of their own and show Aulë they were cowering.

Balrogs were Maiar, Trolls were "made in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves" which, given the above implication, means they weren't created by Melkor either. The Spiders are the offspring of Ungoliant, which really leaves just Glaurung(Father of Dragons) as unexplained.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Tolkien did not want to dig himself into that hole, so he never confirmed the origin of orcs. We still do not know. All we have are theories.

Just a fun fact.
Yes, he was never specific, and there are a number of ideas, but its' always been pretty clear from a plain reading of the text what the Silmarillion had to say about the Orcs.
Keep this discussion going, folks.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:19 am

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Iceborn » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:08 am

Mouthy Expert wrote:Since hobgoblin uses half-elf as a base, is it capable of taking AA levels? If so, what's the dm team's stance on it?
Can't speak for the DMs, but, common sense, folk.
It's an ELVEN class.
A hobgoblin cannot take levels in it, and if it can, then I can assure you that it's not intended and will be fixed soon.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by RedGiant » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:14 am

I want to weigh in on the nerd part of this...

In the utterly definitive Shadows of Mordor (tm) video game, the Orcish immortality issue is vaguely covered, in that when you chop them up, Orcish "surgeons" (i.e. Sawbones) put them back together in hideous new ways...often sans particular body parts...or with some wicked prosthesis.

http://kotaku.com/nobody-knows-how-to-p ... 1644777204

http://shadowofmordor.wikia.com/wiki/Uruks

Sawbones - As with Elves, Uruks excel at war, do not seem to age or sicken, and rarely die naturally. But when they do need healing they call for the Sawbones. These Uruks are imbued with a basic knowledge of herb lore and anatomy, allowing them to perform rudimentary medical treatment, which generally involves some form of amputation.
Given their propensity for hacking meat, they often moonlight as cooks, and brew the putrid and flammable Orc-grog that keeps the Uruk army on its feet.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by caldura firebourne » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:20 am

Mouthy Expert wrote:Since hobgoblin uses half-elf as a base, is it capable of taking AA levels? If so, what's the dm team's stance on it?

no idea on the current stance, however as a fun note, I remember from the days of lasso making henchmen instead of dominated creatures that the blood moon Kommando orcs have AA levels
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by DM Wish » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:32 am

rusticcrow wrote:12 years for me. Mea culpa.

But yes, a DM's word on this would be lovely.
I would view it as follows:
NWN Wiki wrote:Requirements

To qualify as an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Base attack bonus: +6

Feats: weapon focus (longbow or shortbow), point blank shot

Race: elf or half-elf
I would then check the pointy-earedness of Hobgoblin's and discover that they are not in fact elves and are in fact only giant dire Gnomes and have to rule, by that basis, that Hobgoblins are not Arcane Archer material.

As they are not, in any remote sense, elves. Should Tolkien come back from the grave and dispute this I am willing to reconsider however lacking that, that would be what common sense would dictate.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Daedin » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:43 am

In any case.. tolkien goblinoids and forgotten realms goblinoids are two very distinct things.


That being said, and reading up...I now wish we had a sub forum for nothing but nerding out together over such things.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Sabines » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:03 pm

theCountofMonteCristo wrote:
Who can create life besides Eru? Even when Aulë created the dwarves, they were little but automatrons, doing exactly as they were told. Only when Aulë raised his hammer to smash them did Eru give them life of their own and show Aulë they were cowering.
But what was his tax policy?
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:25 pm

theCountofMonteCristo wrote:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:^this is actually isn't entirely true. The notion of elves being corrupted and turned into goblins or orcs was something discovered in some of Tolkien's early notes and letters. However, it was never adopted or canonized in any of his official works.
Except for in the Silmarillion it heavily implies it
Silmarillion wrote:"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
This is talking about the Elves who fled when Oromë came.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:This stems from the incongruous narrative problems it poses. Elves are immortal. When their physical bodies perish, if they do, their spirits still occupy the land of the Grey Havens. They still live on, and if you see Jimmy die at Helm's Deep, don't worry, Jimmy is still sipping wine and writing songs in the Grey Havens.
Elves cannot die and join Iluvatar. This is why they are jealous of men - who are mortal.
This is not true.

A) The Grey Havens are the ship yards in Middle Earth, west of the Shire, home of Cirdan the Shipwright. In Elven it is Mithlond
B) Elves spirits occupy the Halls of Mandos (Mandos being the elven word for "Prison", the Vala's original name before becoming the warden is Námo. So his renaming to Mandos is really calling him Jailer)
B sidenote) Originally Men went to Mandos as well, but this was later changed. The Book of Lost Tales talks about this, and even in the Silmarillion not all of this change was made fully. When Beren dies, Luthien goes to Mandos to retrieve him.
C) Jimmy is not sipping wine and writing songs in the Halls of Mandos. It's name should make it obvious.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Anyways, if orcs/goblins were once elves - wouldn't they still be immortal? Or did something change? Who can change such thing besides Iluvatar himself?
Who can create life besides Eru? Even when Aulë created the dwarves, they were little but automatrons, doing exactly as they were told. Only when Aulë raised his hammer to smash them did Eru give them life of their own and show Aulë they were cowering.

Balrogs were Maiar, Trolls were "made in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves" which, given the above implication, means they weren't created by Melkor either. The Spiders are the offspring of Ungoliant, which really leaves just Glaurung(Father of Dragons) as unexplained.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Tolkien did not want to dig himself into that hole, so he never confirmed the origin of orcs. We still do not know. All we have are theories.

Just a fun fact.
Yes, he was never specific, and there are a number of ideas, but its' always been pretty clear from a plain reading of the text what the Silmarillion had to say about the Orcs.

Gah, beat me to it. And I was so going to geek out about this since I love the Silmarillion and all of the additional tales and lore brought about by it.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Sab1 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:41 pm

I know from the movies that apparently you dig orcs out of the mud.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:02 pm

Sab1 wrote:I know from the movies that apparently you dig orcs out of the mud.
Those are Uruk-Hai. Crossbreeds of men and orcs, at least for the Isengard variant (Or that's what's suggested, anyways; Tolkien is a bit non-distinct about what Uruks actually are and how they differ from normal orcs).
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:41 pm

WYSIWYG

Also this isn't LOTRO

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:28 pm

I got my names mixed up, Count!

I do think it is arguable the spirit of Tolkien versus the spirit of his son. The Silmarilion, let is not be mistaken, was not completed by JRR Tolkien. I know this is my maybe getting too absolutist about it, but I think there's good reason Tolkien never wrote about any of the origins of orc (or other races) into any of the LOTR or their Appendices. Even the books published nowadays in realm of Middle-Earth - that is not the Tolkien. That is Christopher Tolkien. Maybe this is drifting too close to "what is canon" as the Star Wars Universe/Legends fiasco, but the origin of orcs was never made 100% clear by JRR, and was only made a little more hypothetical by his son.

Orcs could have very well existed as an XYZ in Tolkien's mind, but we only got an X in the Silmarilion.

Also, the hunch about the Uruk-hai is Saruman bred Moria(?) orcs with the men from Dunland.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by High Primate » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:03 pm

I didn't post my original comment to argue that hobgoblins should get AA, by the way.
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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by Sab1 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:51 pm

I am sort of enjoying the LOTR talk, Ifind it pretty interesting. I have the urge now to start digging in the UD to see if I can find any half orcs laying about.

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Re: Hobgoblin AAs?

Post by High Primate » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:33 pm

Sab1 wrote:I am sort of enjoying the LOTR talk, Ifind it pretty interesting. I have the urge now to start digging in the UD to see if I can find any half orcs laying about.
You mean half-elves, right?

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