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Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:17 am
by Hunter548
Hunter548 wrote: It's worth noting that that's the Pale Master description because it's copy pasted from the PnP description for Pale Master - IE, because allegedly in P&P clerics are better at necromancy than arcanists.
This, however is demonstrably false. So essentially Bioware just decided to invent some sort of arcane deficiency here for unknown reasons.
So no, clerics aren't really "necromancer specialists". That's something the folks who wrote the Libris Mortis essentially made up, and Bioware decided to run with.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:49 am
by Dr_Hazard89
Hunter548 wrote:Hunter548 wrote:It's worth noting that that's the Pale Master description because it's copy pasted from the PnP description for Pale Master - IE, because allegedly in P&P clerics are better at necromancy than arcanists.
This, however is demonstrably false. So essentially Bioware just decided to invent some sort of arcane deficiency here for unknown reasons.
So no, clerics aren't really "necromancer specialists". That's something the folks who wrote the Libris Mortis essentially made up, and Bioware decided to run with.
Sorry, I don't understand.
Why isn't cleric the #1 necromancer specialist? They're priests and bring people back from dead and use divine powers and all that.
Pale Master is a necromancy related class, but surely they don't even come close to mastering necromancy as much as a /priest/ could. And isn't the Libris Mortis a reliable source?
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:39 am
by Lorkas
Clerics just have a few undead-specific buffs and the ability to use their Turn Undead abilities to command or bolster undead in PnP.
It isn't a lot, but it is what leads to scenes like
this, which can show a bit of why clerics are seen as superior necromancers in PnP.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:45 am
by One Two Three Five
It's noted that barring summoning undead, clerics genuinely are bad necromancers, since they have, like, one non-inflict wounds necromancy spell. None at high level, either, really.
It's really just an arbitrary description from libris mortis. The point of Pale Master is the grafts and the 'becoming' an undead thing, not really the summons. The 'best' necromancer in tabletop is probably some dumb 7 class uber-split verminlord that animates their gated swarm or whatever the hell.
That said, the 'real' pnp necromancer classes: Dread Necromancer and True Necromancer, are arcane and half arcane/half divine, respectively.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:05 am
by Dr_Hazard89
Lorkas wrote:Clerics just have a few undead-specific buffs and the ability to use their Turn Undead abilities to command or bolster undead in PnP.
It isn't a lot, but it is what leads to scenes like
this, which can show a bit of why clerics are seen as superior necromancers in PnP.
Ahahah. Thank you. That made it very easy to understand
One Two Three Five wrote:It's noted that barring summoning undead, clerics genuinely are bad necromancers, since they have, like, one non-inflict wounds necromancy spell. None at high level, either, really.
It's really just an arbitrary description from libris mortis. The point of Pale Master is the grafts and the 'becoming' an undead thing, not really the summons. The 'best' necromancer in tabletop is probably some dumb 7 class uber-split verminlord that animates their gated swarm or whatever the hell.
That said, the 'real' pnp necromancer classes: Dread Necromancer and True Necromancer, are arcane and half arcane/half divine, respectively.
Well, darn. I may have to go back to the drawing board then. Thanks for explaining.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:50 pm
by Hunter548
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand.
Why isn't cleric the #1 necromancer specialist? They're priests and bring people back from dead and use divine powers and all that.
Pale Master is a necromancy related class, but surely they don't even come close to mastering necromancy as much as a /priest/ could. And isn't the Libris Mortis a reliable source?
Raise Dead is conjuration in 3.x, not necromancy. I don't know what other spells you're refering to with "use divine powers".
In PnP, wizards/sorcerers get all the same animation spells that clerics do, and at the same level.
However, wizards/sorcerers get access to the Control Undead spell, which clerics don't have access to, and clerics get Rebuke/Dominate undead if Evil. You have to use one of these two abilities to control any of the intelligent undead you can create (Anything through Create/Create Greater Undead; All non-zombies non-skeletons, essentially). The problem is that Rebuke Undead is charisma based just like Turn Undead is in pnp, and thus it's fairly difficult to build a cleric who actually can dominate anything that isn't well below your cleric level without specifically building for it, or using vaguely cheesey methods like Nightsticks to boost your Turn Undead - Essentially, you end up with clerics being able to have more very weak undead (Skeletons and the like), but none of the stronger stuff that a wizard/sorcerer necromancer could have.
1235 is right about the non-animation side, too; Clerics don't get any of the neat miscellaneous spells in necromancy that arcanists do.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:12 am
by Dr_Hazard89
Hunter548 wrote:Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand.
Why isn't cleric the #1 necromancer specialist? They're priests and bring people back from dead and use divine powers and all that.
Pale Master is a necromancy related class, but surely they don't even come close to mastering necromancy as much as a /priest/ could. And isn't the Libris Mortis a reliable source?
Raise Dead is conjuration in 3.x, not necromancy. I don't know what other spells you're refering to with "use divine powers".
In PnP, wizards/sorcerers get all the same animation spells that clerics do, and at the same level.
However, wizards/sorcerers get access to the Control Undead spell, which clerics don't have access to, and clerics get Rebuke/Dominate undead if Evil. You have to use one of these two abilities to control any of the intelligent undead you can create (Anything through Create/Create Greater Undead; All non-zombies non-skeletons, essentially). The problem is that Rebuke Undead is charisma based just like Turn Undead is in pnp, and thus it's fairly difficult to build a cleric who actually can dominate anything that isn't well below your cleric level without specifically building for it, or using vaguely cheesey methods like Nightsticks to boost your Turn Undead - Essentially, you end up with clerics being able to have more very weak undead (Skeletons and the like), but none of the stronger stuff that a wizard/sorcerer necromancer could have.
1235 is right about the non-animation side, too; Clerics don't get any of the neat miscellaneous spells in necromancy that arcanists do.
Ah, thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me. I appreciate it.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:00 pm
by theCountofMonteCristo
How often do Clerics become Liches? I mean, I'm not a lore junkie, but it seems like most of them are Arcanists.
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:40 pm
by Hunter548
theCountofMonteCristo wrote:How often do Clerics become Liches? I mean, I'm not a lore junkie, but it seems like most of them are Arcanists.
Depends on the setting. I can't think of any in Core/Greyhawk off the top of my head. The only actual rules given for liches are that you have to be evil, have Craft Wonderous Item, and be able to pay the 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create your phylactery - And no word on how creating the phylactery/becoming a lich actually "works". Some third party books go into more detail about how it's actually done and require arcanist levels. Forgotten Realms, obviously, has Baneliches, but otherwise most I can think of are also arcanists.
My personal read would be that clerics can become liches just like wizards/sorcerers, but they'd need to be a cleric of a god who allowed such a thing, and more specifically their god would have to allow them personally to become a lich, rather than dying and getting the reward for their lifetime of service (and their soul being slowly absorbed by the god's divine realm).
Re: Cleric Necromancy
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:52 pm
by Nitro
There's a blurb about Baneliches, clerics of Bane who are turned into liches as a reward for exceptional service, in liber necrotica, but nothing more than a small bit of fluff.