Build advice: Rogue Cleric
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Build advice: Rogue Cleric
Hi all, I am considering a return to server, with a Drow character build shown below. I ask if such a build is feasible at all for soloing (though I'd prefer grouping up we all know that's not always possible), and if you have any tips/changes/recommendations to improve survivability.
I bet I will struggle with low hit points throughout their lifespan, and especially early on when surrounded by rats and other creatures, before Cleric permits healing between fights. Later on the Strength domain's Divine Power and Travel domain's Haste, coupled with Monk UBAB progression for Kama and Improved Two-Weapon fighting, permits many sneak attacks per round, but that's only the end goal (which I bet is very tough to reach for this glass cannon).
I could make them Human instead with some tweaking, but I would lose 2 WIS or 2 CHA to maintain the 25 DEX needed for Epic Dodge, though I would gain 2 CON for more hit points and could perhaps ignore CHA entirely, boosting STR/WIS/CON instead of Divine Might. I would lose the Longbow and Longsword, but maybe that's not too bad, and I would gain a bonus feat.
The Cleric levels are added mainly for preference; I like being able to support party members when I have them, raising dead and whatnot when I can. But what do you find to be the biggest PvM weaknesses of this build, and how can I account for them without changing too much?
Thanks for you input! Please move topic if in wrong forum. Original build follows below:
Rogue(15), Cleric(11), Monk(4), Elf
STR: 14
DEX: 17 (25)
CON: 6
WIS: 14 (16)
INT: 12 (14)
CHA: 14 (16)
Hitpoints: 150
Skillpoints: 244
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 15/20/24
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +6, Mind Effects: +4, Traps: +3
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 27 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/28
Spell Casting: Cleric(6)
Alignment Changes: 0
Disable Trap 33(37), Hide 32(39), Move Silently 32(39), Open Lock 18(25), Parry 33(40), Search 21(25), Set Trap 5(14), Spellcraft 28(30), Tumble 30(37), UMD 12(15)
01: Rogue(1): INT+1, Two-Weapon Fighting
02: Rogue(2): INT+1, Subrace: Drow, Gift: Dexterity
03: Rogue(3): CHA+1, Ambidexterity
04: Cleric(1): DEX+1, Domain Strength, Domain Travel
05: Cleric(2): CHA+1
06: Cleric(3): DEX+1, Extend Spell
07: Monk(1): DEX+1
08: Monk(2): DEX+1
09: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
10: Cleric(4)
11: Rogue(4)
12: Monk(4): DEX+1, Power Attack
13: Cleric(5)
14: Rogue(5)
15: Cleric(6): Divine Might
16: Cleric(7): DEX+1
17: Cleric(8)
18: Rogue(6): Knockdown
19: Rogue(7)
20: Rogue(8): WIS+1
21: Cleric(9): Extra Turning
22: Rogue(9)
23: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
24: Rogue(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I
25: Rogue(12)
26: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge
28: Cleric(10): WIS+1
29: Cleric(11)
30: Rogue(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
I bet I will struggle with low hit points throughout their lifespan, and especially early on when surrounded by rats and other creatures, before Cleric permits healing between fights. Later on the Strength domain's Divine Power and Travel domain's Haste, coupled with Monk UBAB progression for Kama and Improved Two-Weapon fighting, permits many sneak attacks per round, but that's only the end goal (which I bet is very tough to reach for this glass cannon).
I could make them Human instead with some tweaking, but I would lose 2 WIS or 2 CHA to maintain the 25 DEX needed for Epic Dodge, though I would gain 2 CON for more hit points and could perhaps ignore CHA entirely, boosting STR/WIS/CON instead of Divine Might. I would lose the Longbow and Longsword, but maybe that's not too bad, and I would gain a bonus feat.
The Cleric levels are added mainly for preference; I like being able to support party members when I have them, raising dead and whatnot when I can. But what do you find to be the biggest PvM weaknesses of this build, and how can I account for them without changing too much?
Thanks for you input! Please move topic if in wrong forum. Original build follows below:
Rogue(15), Cleric(11), Monk(4), Elf
STR: 14
DEX: 17 (25)
CON: 6
WIS: 14 (16)
INT: 12 (14)
CHA: 14 (16)
Hitpoints: 150
Skillpoints: 244
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 15/20/24
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +6, Mind Effects: +4, Traps: +3
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 27 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/28
Spell Casting: Cleric(6)
Alignment Changes: 0
Disable Trap 33(37), Hide 32(39), Move Silently 32(39), Open Lock 18(25), Parry 33(40), Search 21(25), Set Trap 5(14), Spellcraft 28(30), Tumble 30(37), UMD 12(15)
01: Rogue(1): INT+1, Two-Weapon Fighting
02: Rogue(2): INT+1, Subrace: Drow, Gift: Dexterity
03: Rogue(3): CHA+1, Ambidexterity
04: Cleric(1): DEX+1, Domain Strength, Domain Travel
05: Cleric(2): CHA+1
06: Cleric(3): DEX+1, Extend Spell
07: Monk(1): DEX+1
08: Monk(2): DEX+1
09: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
10: Cleric(4)
11: Rogue(4)
12: Monk(4): DEX+1, Power Attack
13: Cleric(5)
14: Rogue(5)
15: Cleric(6): Divine Might
16: Cleric(7): DEX+1
17: Cleric(8)
18: Rogue(6): Knockdown
19: Rogue(7)
20: Rogue(8): WIS+1
21: Cleric(9): Extra Turning
22: Rogue(9)
23: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
24: Rogue(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I
25: Rogue(12)
26: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge
28: Cleric(10): WIS+1
29: Cleric(11)
30: Rogue(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
I'm not going to offer a detailed comment as it's not a build strategy I'm familiar with but I will say three things:
(1) A character with less than 14 Con generally struggles. One with 6 is unplayable.
(2) I would suggest dropping Cleric in a rogue heavy build for Shadowdancer. Can still be priestly in RP and it fits better. If you insist on the Cleric then go 21 Cleric, 6 Monk, 3 Rogue and rely on trickery domain to do roguish stuff. That way you can be a faith powered sneak.
(3) Strength is not as good as trickery for your build. You want Improved Invisibility / Invisibility and the special power boost to rogue skills.
(1) A character with less than 14 Con generally struggles. One with 6 is unplayable.
(2) I would suggest dropping Cleric in a rogue heavy build for Shadowdancer. Can still be priestly in RP and it fits better. If you insist on the Cleric then go 21 Cleric, 6 Monk, 3 Rogue and rely on trickery domain to do roguish stuff. That way you can be a faith powered sneak.
(3) Strength is not as good as trickery for your build. You want Improved Invisibility / Invisibility and the special power boost to rogue skills.
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Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
Yeah I'd also go for a shadowdancer, your stat spread up there is not even remotely doable. Drop your STR, drop your CHA. Boost Con as much as possible.
But for what you're trying to do, the class you want is shadowdancer. Or fighter. That said, I'll give you what advice for this that I can.
1. A meleer with 6 CON is, in the nicest way possible, pretty literally unplayable. (6 con is -2, right?) At level three you'll have 12 HP. That's nothing. That's a rat looking at you the wrong way. You wont break 20 hp till level 5. At 20 you're only looking at 104. Gear wont help much, because for this one you'll probably want dex, con, wis, yea? As a frontline melee, even a flanker, this is, again, undoable. Even if you get +12 con from gear and spells, that's only 224. Not enough at 20.
2. Your AB is going to be bad, and with only 11 cleric levels (and only 8 pre-epic) divine power isn't going to save you: you'll have to cast it every single fight, and you just will not period have enough casts of it. I'd suggest either more cleric (and run a 'real' battlecleric build with 15-17+ cleric, kamas, the works, ignore epic dodge) or no cleric at all. Cleric's not a super good splash class.
3. If you're going for a dex-based cleric, you don't want strength domain. Travel, yes. Plant maybe, but if we're being real the best domains are almost always travel/trickery. That said, with 11 cleric levels you're, like. Not getting anywhere good with it.
4. Getting your last points of discipline at level 12 will kill you, over and over.
5. 11 cleric levels means you'll get dispelled more than a rogue/monk/fighter.
ALL THAT SAID.
If you really want to go for a dex-y cleric-thief, the build offered above is basically what you were going with, but better. (21 cleric/6 monk/3 rogue). Make sure to save up a monk level and those rogue levels for a tumble/disc/umd dump at epic. Use kamas. It's worse than a standard battlecleric but I've had fun with them.
Also, you can't take stat gifts on drow. You can take magthere (-2 cha, +2 con), or clergy (-2 dex, +2 wis) however.
Tweaks to make this build, I guess, work:
Drow, gift of Magthere.
Start 3 cleric (The summons will probably serve you better than rogue levels). Use a rapier, longbow, whatever. Travel domain, something that isn't strength. Do not invest in cha as a cleric unless you're running divine might/shield. None of the domain powers last long enough/are good enough even with cha to warrant using them in any situation other than dropping an Eagle's splendor on yourself for the duration.
Stats, in priority order: Dex, Con/Wis, Int. Drow gives you +2 int anyway. 12 to start is probably fine. Class spread, maybe: 13 Rogue/11 cleric/6 monk. (Free IKD, disc dump at epic. Still bad.)
(Okay no but seriously have you looked at the shadowdancer or blackguard changes?)
EDIT: Dude I just noticed you get improved two weapon fighting at level 30. That's not going to be any fun for you at all.
But for what you're trying to do, the class you want is shadowdancer. Or fighter. That said, I'll give you what advice for this that I can.
1. A meleer with 6 CON is, in the nicest way possible, pretty literally unplayable. (6 con is -2, right?) At level three you'll have 12 HP. That's nothing. That's a rat looking at you the wrong way. You wont break 20 hp till level 5. At 20 you're only looking at 104. Gear wont help much, because for this one you'll probably want dex, con, wis, yea? As a frontline melee, even a flanker, this is, again, undoable. Even if you get +12 con from gear and spells, that's only 224. Not enough at 20.
2. Your AB is going to be bad, and with only 11 cleric levels (and only 8 pre-epic) divine power isn't going to save you: you'll have to cast it every single fight, and you just will not period have enough casts of it. I'd suggest either more cleric (and run a 'real' battlecleric build with 15-17+ cleric, kamas, the works, ignore epic dodge) or no cleric at all. Cleric's not a super good splash class.
3. If you're going for a dex-based cleric, you don't want strength domain. Travel, yes. Plant maybe, but if we're being real the best domains are almost always travel/trickery. That said, with 11 cleric levels you're, like. Not getting anywhere good with it.
4. Getting your last points of discipline at level 12 will kill you, over and over.
5. 11 cleric levels means you'll get dispelled more than a rogue/monk/fighter.
ALL THAT SAID.
If you really want to go for a dex-y cleric-thief, the build offered above is basically what you were going with, but better. (21 cleric/6 monk/3 rogue). Make sure to save up a monk level and those rogue levels for a tumble/disc/umd dump at epic. Use kamas. It's worse than a standard battlecleric but I've had fun with them.
Also, you can't take stat gifts on drow. You can take magthere (-2 cha, +2 con), or clergy (-2 dex, +2 wis) however.
Tweaks to make this build, I guess, work:
Drow, gift of Magthere.
Start 3 cleric (The summons will probably serve you better than rogue levels). Use a rapier, longbow, whatever. Travel domain, something that isn't strength. Do not invest in cha as a cleric unless you're running divine might/shield. None of the domain powers last long enough/are good enough even with cha to warrant using them in any situation other than dropping an Eagle's splendor on yourself for the duration.
Stats, in priority order: Dex, Con/Wis, Int. Drow gives you +2 int anyway. 12 to start is probably fine. Class spread, maybe: 13 Rogue/11 cleric/6 monk. (Free IKD, disc dump at epic. Still bad.)
(Okay no but seriously have you looked at the shadowdancer or blackguard changes?)
EDIT: Dude I just noticed you get improved two weapon fighting at level 30. That's not going to be any fun for you at all.
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.The devil does not need any more advocates
Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
Thanks for the feedback so far! Much better realizing the shortcomings now instead of 5 levels in. Blackguard and Shadowdancer sure have changed from vanilla NwN last time I was here, me likes Sneak attacks +1d6 per 3 levels of shadow? Finally there's a reason to go more than 1 or 3 levels Shadowdancer! Summons for Blackguard aren't half bad either.
I'm psyched for Shadowdancer now, I can just use Healer's Kits for the priestly stuff yes, so I'll probably ditch the cleric and cook up a replacement build, something with 6 Monk levels and 4 Rogue probably (I do like those trap/lock skills, will have to sacrifice the 16BAB pre-epic though). Any further advice in that regard is most welcome.
I'm psyched for Shadowdancer now, I can just use Healer's Kits for the priestly stuff yes, so I'll probably ditch the cleric and cook up a replacement build, something with 6 Monk levels and 4 Rogue probably (I do like those trap/lock skills, will have to sacrifice the 16BAB pre-epic though). Any further advice in that regard is most welcome.
Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
Shadowdancer 13 / Rogue 11 / Monk 6
Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
If going cleric monk go healer add quaterstaff.
Re: Shadowdancer build advice
Alright, how about something like shown below?
I could go for the Kensai path for +10 discipline and extra spell resistance, using Shuriken for ranged sneak attacks; since they are not Mighty the low STR may not hurt as much.
Perhaps Halfling is a poor choice; no Keen Senses for trapfinding, reduced strength, and the offhand Kama won't be a light weapon. Human would give an extra feat (Armor Skin maybe).
PS: Is there an up-to-date documentation of the Gifts system somewhere? The Wiki and forums' Mechanical Changes seem outdated or lacking information on this. Anyway, here's the build:
Rogue(13), Monk(4), Shadowdancer(13), Halfling
STR: 8
DEX: 20 (30)
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8
Hitpoints: 304
Skillpoints: 288
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 17/13/32
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +4, Fear: +2
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 31 (melee), 32 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 27/27
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0
Disable Trap 33(37), Discipline 23(22), Hide 33(47), Listen 33(38), Move Silently 33(49), Open Lock 32(42), Parry 33(43), Search 33(35), Set Trap 5(17), Tumble 30(40)
01: Rogue(1): DEX+1, Gift of the Sneak, Dodge, Gift of Grace, Gift of Endurance
02: Rogue(2): DEX+1
03: Rogue(3): CON+1, Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(1): DEX+1
05: Monk(2): CON+1
06: Monk(3): Mobility
07: Rogue(4)
08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1
09: Shadowdancer(2): Knockdown
10: Shadowdancer(3)
11: Shadowdancer(4)
12: Shadowdancer(5): DEX+1, Blind Fight
13: Rogue(5)
14: Shadowdancer(6)
15: Shadowdancer(7): Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Rogue(6): DEX+1
17: Rogue(7)
18: Shadowdancer(8): Ambidexterity
19: Rogue(8)
20: Monk(4): DEX+1
21: Rogue(9): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
22: Shadowdancer(9)
23: Shadowdancer(10)
24: Rogue(10): DEX+1, Improved Knockdown, Crippling Strike
25: Rogue(11)
26: Shadowdancer(11)
27: Shadowdancer(12): Great Dexterity I
28: Shadowdancer(13): DEX+1, Epic Shadowlord
29: Rogue(12)
30: Rogue(13): Epic Dodge, Self Concealment I
I could go for the Kensai path for +10 discipline and extra spell resistance, using Shuriken for ranged sneak attacks; since they are not Mighty the low STR may not hurt as much.
Perhaps Halfling is a poor choice; no Keen Senses for trapfinding, reduced strength, and the offhand Kama won't be a light weapon. Human would give an extra feat (Armor Skin maybe).
PS: Is there an up-to-date documentation of the Gifts system somewhere? The Wiki and forums' Mechanical Changes seem outdated or lacking information on this. Anyway, here's the build:
Rogue(13), Monk(4), Shadowdancer(13), Halfling
STR: 8
DEX: 20 (30)
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8
Hitpoints: 304
Skillpoints: 288
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 17/13/32
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +4, Fear: +2
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 31 (melee), 32 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 27/27
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0
Disable Trap 33(37), Discipline 23(22), Hide 33(47), Listen 33(38), Move Silently 33(49), Open Lock 32(42), Parry 33(43), Search 33(35), Set Trap 5(17), Tumble 30(40)
01: Rogue(1): DEX+1, Gift of the Sneak, Dodge, Gift of Grace, Gift of Endurance
02: Rogue(2): DEX+1
03: Rogue(3): CON+1, Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(1): DEX+1
05: Monk(2): CON+1
06: Monk(3): Mobility
07: Rogue(4)
08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1
09: Shadowdancer(2): Knockdown
10: Shadowdancer(3)
11: Shadowdancer(4)
12: Shadowdancer(5): DEX+1, Blind Fight
13: Rogue(5)
14: Shadowdancer(6)
15: Shadowdancer(7): Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Rogue(6): DEX+1
17: Rogue(7)
18: Shadowdancer(8): Ambidexterity
19: Rogue(8)
20: Monk(4): DEX+1
21: Rogue(9): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
22: Shadowdancer(9)
23: Shadowdancer(10)
24: Rogue(10): DEX+1, Improved Knockdown, Crippling Strike
25: Rogue(11)
26: Shadowdancer(11)
27: Shadowdancer(12): Great Dexterity I
28: Shadowdancer(13): DEX+1, Epic Shadowlord
29: Rogue(12)
30: Rogue(13): Epic Dodge, Self Concealment I
Last edited by mf_hansen on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
Lower constitution and dexterity and raise wisdom. You get your wisdom modifer as AC on monk, so you don't want negative AC from having 8. I'd try to get at least 14 wisdom, and probably use gifts for DEX and WIS.
Oh, and the gifts page on the wiki is up to date, I am pretty sure. http://wiki.arelith.com/Gifts
Oh, and the gifts page on the wiki is up to date, I am pretty sure. http://wiki.arelith.com/Gifts
Re: Build advice: Rogue Cleric
You don't get ac penalty for less than 10 wisdom as monk.
Re: Shadowdancer build advice
Ah, oops; I was looking at the outdated wikia page - thanks for the proper link. I made some edits to the Halfling build above, removed UMD since Kensai probably can't use that skill much anyway. I removed two Monk levels for Rogue, adding in Blind fight and IKD a bit earlier in the progression. Discipline ends up at 32 points due to the Kensai boost, with +6 to spell saves.
Maxing out DEX with gifts I can get Self Concealment at the level cap, but maybe it's not worth the investment if DEX could be spent on something better. I could swap the CON gift for STR to remove the Halfling penalty. Also considering if Knockdown could be replaced with something better for earlier TWF if the Shadow provides most of the flanking (kinda feat starved).
Ugh, so tempted to go for Kensai... Its bonuses boost early rogue combat and remove the need for 6 monk levels, but their weakness to poison and disease make that kind of pointless. Unless you consecrate alters like mad and pray/worship nonstop. Better hope there's an altar nearby, and max herbalism for Restoration Pies and Healer's Kits! The Admiral is on the Kensai fence again!
Maxing out DEX with gifts I can get Self Concealment at the level cap, but maybe it's not worth the investment if DEX could be spent on something better. I could swap the CON gift for STR to remove the Halfling penalty. Also considering if Knockdown could be replaced with something better for earlier TWF if the Shadow provides most of the flanking (kinda feat starved).
Ugh, so tempted to go for Kensai... Its bonuses boost early rogue combat and remove the need for 6 monk levels, but their weakness to poison and disease make that kind of pointless. Unless you consecrate alters like mad and pray/worship nonstop. Better hope there's an altar nearby, and max herbalism for Restoration Pies and Healer's Kits! The Admiral is on the Kensai fence again!