Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

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CptJonas
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Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by CptJonas » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:26 am

Small but important question....
I have been playing for while, but in few months there was many messenges and talk about raids and stuff around them, in game, and OOC aswell....

Can I get some clarification? What is considered to be raid? Is it one faction atacking another? Is it when 2-3 random guys from cordor group up to go and kill some drows in outpost? What scale and other stuff it have to have to be raid, and ergo need a authorization?

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Sartain » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:31 am

FOIG :P

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:35 am

It has more to do with who you are attacking and where. Raids are only a subset.

If there are NPCs that would react to your attack, you need to get a DM involved, because otherwise you are ignoring them. Do the Peacekeepers in the Hub care if two drow go at each other? Not really. Do they care if a surface faction attacks the City? Most definitely.

Do Brogendenstein NPCs guards care if you are having a go at a dwarf, or generally disrupting their hold? Hell yeah.

A good rule of the thumb is: are there NPCs in sight that would act against you in some way? Don't attack without asking the DM team.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by CptJonas » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:38 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:35 am
It has more to do with who you are attacking and where. Raids are only a subset.

If there are NPCs that would react to your attack, you need to get a DM involved, because otherwise you are ignoring them. Do the Peacekeepers in the Hub care if two drow go at each other? Not really. Do they care if a surface faction attacks the City? Most definitely.

Do Brogendenstein NPCs guards care if you are having a go at a dwarf, or generally disrupting their hold? Hell yeah.

A good rule of the thumb is: are there NPCs in sight that would act against you in some way? Don't attack without asking the DM team.
Thx a lot...that was exactly what I needed to know....

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Nitro » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:55 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:35 am
A good rule of the thumb is: are there NPCs in sight that would act against you in some way? Don't attack without asking the DM team.
Keep in mind also that this isn't the end-all of conflict. Just because there are NPC's present doesn't mean someone can't attack you in a tense situation, just that there might be repercussions for it later. Standing next to an NPC guard doesn't mean you can't get hit if you talk shit.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:27 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:55 am
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:35 am
A good rule of the thumb is: are there NPCs in sight that would act against you in some way? Don't attack without asking the DM team.
Standing next to an NPC guard doesn't mean you can't get hit if you talk shit.
It usually does though. Because that NPC guard would react and arrest you. Consequences that you cannot face because the guard is an npc.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Nitro » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 pm

Yes, hence there might be repercussions for it, whether they're IC or OOC from DM intervention. This isn't a static world where we can blanket say that anyone doing any PvP near guards is bad and should be banned because the street goes both ways. Do you think the guard would stand idly by while things escalate and one person taunts and baits another into attacking them? There's no area on the server that is "no PVP allowed" but rather each instance of PvP conflict there will be judged on the circumstances surrounding it if there were NPC's present.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Durvayas » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:42 pm

CptJonas wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:26 am
Small but important question....
I have been playing for while, but in few months there was many messenges and talk about raids and stuff around them, in game, and OOC aswell....

Can I get some clarification? What is considered to be raid? Is it one faction atacking another? Is it when 2-3 random guys from cordor group up to go and kill some drows in outpost? What scale and other stuff it have to have to be raid, and ergo need a authorization?
At the outpost? Not really, though you'd be ignoring several monsterous NPCs there to do so.

2-3 people from cordor, warded to the teeth, walking through the gates of Andunor to gank someone within the city proper in front of the peacekeepers? Yea, that should need a DM. Andunor has been attacked by the surface enough times that the peacekeepers should be hostile to any surfacer demonstrating hostile intent.
The city tolerates merchants. One or two PCs lightly warded shouldn't be a problem, but in the past I've seen as many as eight fully warded people just waltz in and attack people right in front of the guards. Thats a raid by definition.
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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by DM Axis » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:10 pm

Raids are an OOC topic, so the FOIG doesn't really help in this instance.

That said, raids and wars are very different.
Standard roleplay that breaks into PVP is not a raid.

Raid/War is when essentially the sole purpose of a group of players (4 or more) is approaching an area with NPCs with the sole purpose of PVP and hostility. This does not include free roaming however, feel free to roam away.
This rule includes non settlement areas such as the Radiant Heart, Banite Church, and Arcane Tower to name a few.

Heavily warded groups in excess of these numbers can be suspected to do a raid, a DM can and may reach out to see what's going on or ask that people vacate an area. This might be done because there is a high frequency of aggressive behaviors that have been noticed in the area.

The group does not have to be in a mechanical group/party for it to be considered 'not in excess of five'. If you are of the same faction, or simply similarly minded in the target of attack/harassment they will be included.

That said, raids can and are allowed. But by approval only.
At minimum 7 RL (1 week) prior to a raid - the Active DM Team should be notified of intentions. (Date/Time/Area to be hit/Roleplay involved/Objective actions and target goals if any) If it is not approved, it will be a rulebreak if the raid proceeds without permission.
The objective of this rule is to ensure that there is some degree of interactivity between attackers and defenders, and so that DMs can supervise the action. So giving OOC heads up to those who would be attacked in the interest of creating a narrative are highly encouraged.
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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Memelord » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:18 pm

tl;dr

Very small parties and individuals are fine to go in, kill people, and then flee - provided they provide appropriate RP and the kill helps drive the narrative rather than just being a punitive "lol killbash 25/8 kthnxbai" situation.

Any attack by a group of any appreciable size requires direct DM oversight and advance warning of at least 1 RL week.

Although I would hesitate to put an exact number on what constitutes a "group of appreciable size" out of concern that some players might just smile and nod and continue the behavior that's already gotten them a slap on the wrist with exactly under that, and encourage "small parties" engaging in hit and run assassinations to be as small as possible (preferably individuals) dealing damage as precisely as possible before fleeing as quickly as possible with significant RP reasons beyond just PvP for its own sake.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Face » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:05 am

....the obvious problem with this being:

Step 1: Individual powerbuild character shows up at a settlement and wrecks everyone, with a posse of back-up characters a few transitions behind them
Step 2: Angry settlement tries to send a group of allies out to get revenge
Step 3: Powerbuild + backup posse retreats to their base
Step 4: Settlement squad approaches base = PVP rule break, shouting, pausing, bans, slaps
Step 5: ...

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:49 am

Face wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:05 am
....the obvious problem with this being:

Step 1: Individual powerbuild character shows up at a settlement and wrecks everyone, with a posse of back-up characters a few transitions behind them
Step 2: Angry settlement tries to send a group of allies out to get revenge
Step 3: Powerbuild + backup posse retreats to their base
Step 4: Settlement squad approaches base = PVP rule break, shouting, pausing, bans, slaps
Step 5: ...
That seems like a fairly reasonable explanation tbf. The tactic of rushing into a place even with NPCs to 'assasinate' or take out a hit on someone, is to my understanding a legal move because it isn't a 'raid' because of the number of people you have, and that your target is just one character so you do not need to notify a DM.

I think there are obvious flaws in this approach that have most recently come to light in a 'grey' area of the rules or maybe the abuse of the rule in a way that took advantage of the grey area.

On the same hand though, if you know a response to that attack breaks the rules, why do it? Just wait to get a DM and go through the proper process. If the opposing side wants to be cheesy in their attacks then let them be the DMs will catch up with them. It goes back to what i've said before, you can't police the other sides RP. You can report it, sure, but report it then focus on being the best RPer/player one can be and let the DM's handle rule breaks or negative encounters. Taking the rules or retribution into ones own hands just won't work.
Further: For the purpose of this rule, any NPC populated area counts as "a settlement". That includes: Arcane Tower, various Castles/Watchtowers, Lighthouses, Ports, Outlying Inns, etc. In short: You see NPCs wandering about a place you wish to attack, get DM approval.
From the wiki, the difference between a raid and not a raid is that the target is the settlement or an individual player. I also remember reading (But I can't find it atm) Where you don't need to ask PVP permission to just whack someone in a settlement if you're targeting a single character. So again, the difference is attacking the NPC settlement as a whole, or only going after a character.

The obvious issue with this is that in the process of going after 1 character it can escalate to all out conflcit that draws in the entire town and morphs into a raid.

Easy solution might just be to stop purposefully hunting people in NPC populated areas that are towns. or if you are, atl east ask for a DM to be present I don't know. The rule could use clarification.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by JubJub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:30 am

Usually I would suggest if it may involve large groups of people, even not around npcs, I would alert a Dm since it can quickly get out of hand when 15 or 20 people are involved.


I don't agree not to pvp in a populated area, just because someone in a town doesn't mean they shouldn't be wary of an assassin. There is a difference to me of someone jumping out of shadows and shanking someone quickly where a guard may not have time to react then fleeing and bob just walking about cordor threatening to kill everyone.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:04 am

My point is that in the attempt to perform an assassination, if it doesn't occur 'quickly' a battle can unfold that escalates into raid like qualities. Like being chased around a place while a mad mage slaughters everything in their path trying to get someone. The mage may have began the confrontation assuming they could kill the 1 character without escalation, but if that fails, it turns into a giant mess.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by JubJub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:26 am

I understand, I just think the big key is bob and frank start fighting in town, its not raid. But if hellballs start getting tossed about that harms innocent people and npcs then I will guess that starts falling into the raid issue. They just need to understand that trying to kill someone isn't license for free pvp on anything in your path. Just because I want to kill someone and they are in the hub doesn't allow me to kill everything I come across in the hub. Now if they involve themselves they are fair game.

One rule can't cover every instance that may occur. This is where common sense and play nice should come into play. Its not uncommon for a UD raid to be met with a large group going out to hunt them or to hear in the UD that surfacers have been spotted near this place lets go get them. It would be pretty bad if the bane people decide to raid say Bendir then run away but people are told you can't chase them or go to their base and demand they come out. But this is why a Dm needs to be told before a raid, because a response to the raid should be expected.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:41 am

I guess the be nice rule fills in the gaps to be honest. The reason this issue exists is because people were not and are not being nice.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 am

I feel like the inherent issue with this policy that I hope to see changed in the future, is the requirement to organize OOC'ly.

1 week in advance? Date and time? That's assuming a lot of premeditation! The majority of every conflict I've ever been in, including large encounter PvP, is spurious. If the opportunity presents itself, sure, one tries to take it. But... now when you feel like a 'raid' is something you actually might want to do, you have to actually contrive a reason not to have your characters immediately consider it anymore, and either hope enough people can be online a week later at a randomly chosen date, or resort to planning a date for it out-of-character. And even then, life happens and it can be very difficult to stick to that particular date, much less hope everyone is on at that time? The more people that are involved, the more likely it becomes that someone can't attend.

I understand this is inevitable to some degree, I just feel like requiring a date, and probably the 1-Week prior noticed, ought to be ditched. If you get a DM, you get a DM and go. If you can't get hold of a DM, you don't.

Keep it simple, and reduce OOC mixing.
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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by DM Titania » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:19 am

Organize it ICly first, then ask for it OOCly. You are only asking permission for the storyline to continue. Simply add a branch to your storyline that you will take if we reject it, which is pretty rare in honesty unless a place has been raided frequently and we feel it is a bad idea, or you've shown inability to do a raid story well and only in it for the win mentality.

Say the Queen of Air and Darkness wants to raid Grumpy the Cat's chest of nip hidden in Guldorand. The Queen of Air and Darkness begins planning for it with her minions, and sends a request of permission with an estimated date of action. While waiting for a response she starts to send spies, gather materials, and even send a message of doom to Beryl, in that if she does not surrender half of her collected portions of cat nip, consequences will arise.

The Team returns and tells her yes, then the Queen of Air and Darkness can send her evil minions to attack, capturing Grumpy and tickling the creature with feathers until it gives out the location of the cat nip, which it enjoys in marvelously wicked fashion until they are suddenly defeated by Titania pressing the button.

Or the Team returns no, for X reason, and the Queen of Air and Darkness may change the location if it was suggested to Atropos the Dog's Treat Location because Atropos always has the best retreats, or cancel and send out the assassin Spyre to ambush the target when they are alone. The IC representation is simply is the Queen of Air and Darkness realizing the plan is too risky, may be simplified, or anything else they come up with creatively.

TL;DR: We need the timeline so we can assess if the raid is appropriate or not, more than we can do in an on the fly call. Raids generally get messy fast, and we want them to be rare with narrative built up to it and reason for it. It is very easy to meld IC reason around the simply Yes or No, and you can plan for it before asking, so long as you do not raid until you have permission for the date, which is a week in advance.
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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:22 am

Once a upon a time when doing something illegal, whether it be bashing a fixture (vandalism) in front of a guard or killing another person (murder), it used to be called godmodding, because the NPCs can't react unless a DM is present.
Nowadays people refer to it as a 'raid', but nevertheless, the same rules apply. I think with an actual raid (a large party wanting to attack a settlement, faction, guild, or any other large party) extra planning needs to take place with DM oversight. That's what would be considered an 'authorized' raid, if you will.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Arienette » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm

I underatand the rukes in regards to 1 v 1 PvP, i think. But group? No way. I hope this is not too specific.

One faction has given my PC all the RP reasons in the world to be hostile towards them. I wont get into details to avoid individual fingerpointing.

But my current plan is to basically avoid and ignore.

Some plotline seems to be headed towards said group? Redirect, find something else to do, log off.

The general region where said folks generally exist? Dont go there, no matter what RP reasons i might have.

God forbid, see said folks in a public place? Ignore, do not engage, pretend they are not there, leave. For entirely OOC reasons, against every possible IC reason.

Why? Because at this point i have no idea how i can engage without making OOC trouble for myself or those around me.

My solution has been to play more on alts, and to do a lot less adventuring, and more "chill" stuff around town.

And if someone hypothetically walks in and drops an implosion on me for no discernable reason? Log off, pretend it didnt happen.

Thats the best solution i can come up with at the moment.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by JubJub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:04 pm

I honestly don't see how much of this is all that complicated. A lot of what you described seems typical pvp stuff. The main key is RP before PVP but don't be cheesy, is just shouting Die before attacking rp? But this is also why there can't be a rule for every situation as some might feel sure that's enough rp where others might say shouting one word isn't rp. The server can't say you must say at least 10 words or wait 30 seconds before attacking.


There is a big difference between seeing Bob walking along the road and saying I'm going to get him and oh there's Bob in the Nomad unleash the hellballs and summon the Balor. Or I will lay 100 traps outside of the Baneite keep and wait for one to show up and walk into them. Not to mention Just because you see someone you hate in town doesn't mean you have to attack them right then and there. This is where rp comes in, is your character the type to break a towns laws and strike someone down in front of everyone or are they more of the ok it's not worth the hassle to get him here I will follow him around until he's alone type?

If 3 elves are walking I the forest and come across 2 drow and then a fight breaks out, that's just normal pvp. Again rp before pvp and don't be cheesy. Usually the player has a good idea they are doing something that might be a bit borderline.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Arienette » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:25 pm

I cant really address the "player has a good idea that they are doing something borderline" without giving details.

But about week ago, my PC and a few of his IC buddies engaged in some harmless comedic RP. A few days later, some bans happened and all this talk of unauthorized raids made me realize that the harmless comedic RP i engaged in (where the "other side" was not even present) probably technically broke the rules. And could, under the new harsher rules enforcement, could result in a ban.

Because of how tense everything is between some of the various PCs and players, it seems the safer route at this time is to just not engage. There is plenty of things me and my character can do that dont involve high intrigue, conflict, pvp, and politics. Id LIKE to engage in some of that RP, but not at the risk of getting on the wrong person's bad side and ending up on a DM bad boy list or worse.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Chair » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:35 pm

Honestly if we're going to be 100% upfront here none of this is really new. Its just more visible now that they've went out and said it. The whole raid permission thing was present before with the requirements against npc inhabited areas, the only new thing is the random time allotment of 1 week. And as someone who has had many active verbal throwdowns with DMs, there really isn't anything outwardly risky about doing something under these new policies. Just boils down to not being a shitter and giving people a chance to do their thing. Sure, you might get wrecked sometimes for letting the other people initiate on you but in general most people don't.

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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:52 pm

Just to clarify, it is not 'illegal' to pvp in front of NPCs as a rule. If the Queen of Air and Darkness hops into Bendir by her lonesome, gets into an argument with Grumpy the Cat, and pvp ensues in front of the guards? That's not a huge deal. At worst it's considered 'poor rp', but that excepting in truly extraordinary incidents, it's not considered a rules break.

But you know, to an extent most of this is case by case , and must be assessed as such. And /IS/ assessed as such. We look at the situation, look at the intent of those involved, look at the numbers and we take it from there.

EDIT: And if The Queen of Air and Darkness tries to steal my catnip, then there'll be hell to pay. Just saying.
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Re: Raids, Unauthorized, authorized....

Post by Subutai » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:25 pm

On the subject of notifying the DMs 1 RL week in advance of a raid, I understand (and agree with) the need of the DM team to assess the situation. An entire RL week, though, seems like a huge amount. That's 70 days in game, which is more than two months. The entire situation IG surrounding a conflict can change dramatically over the course of a day, let alone a week. A raid that was extremely advantageous to one group a week ago might be a disastrously bad idea a week later.

I completely understand and support the desire of the DM team to assess the situation and coordinate, but 7 RL days is a tremendous amount of time.

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