PvP Rules

[solo]

Can someone explain the rules regarding initiating PvP and how you're meant to conduct yourself during?

I've read the forums, the wiki, and the in-game journal rules entry on the subject.

Seems that information is dated because what I'm reading and what I'm experiencing have nothing in common.

[The Rambling Midget]

what I'm reading and what I'm experiencing have nothing in common.

If what you're reading and what you're seeing don't match up, please report it to the DMs through a PM. Unfortunately, not everyone chooses to follow the rules, and the only way to deal with them is through reports.

[solo]

Hmm, I don't think we're quite there yet so for now I'll reserve invoking the powers that be for divine intervention for more serious concerns. Perhaps this was more of an issue of a complete lack of elegance and class, and considering they ported to another server right after, maybe even a little pinch of cowardice.

Not the rules, then. What's the accepted convention amongst the playerbase for PvP?

My understanding was that some degree of OOC communication was required to begin with.

I'm also utterly unclear on what is meant by:

Combat actions ... against other PC's (PvP) MUST BE INTERACTIVELY ROLE PLAYED. That means you interact, they interact, etc: BEFORE any action occurs

This is the kind of vaguely worded rule that would give lawyers a wet dream. I honestly don't even know how to interpret this. Is 3 emotes, hostile, instant-death spell, boom, sufficient to fulfill that particular requirement? My initial understand was something along the lines of...

Person 1 emotes *Draws his sword and begins closing the distance, clearly about to attack...*

Person 2 emotes *Raises his hands and begins whispering arcane incantations...* or *Realizes he should have kept his mouth shut and starts running...*

*Now PvP begins*

In any case, my concern is less about what the person in question did. Quite frankly, all I lost was a bit of virtual money, some xp, and some time. I am a little annoyed, yes. But mostly at the manner in which the whole thing took place. I'm more concerned about how I'm supposed to conduct myself so as to... you know... not be a dick.

[The Rambling Midget]

I'm also utterly unclear on what is meant by:

Combat actions ... against other PC's (PvP) MUST BE INTERACTIVELY ROLE PLAYED. That means you interact, they interact, etc: BEFORE any action occurs

This is the kind of vaguely worded rule that would give lawyers a wet dream. I honestly don't even know how to interpret this. Is 3 emotes, hostile, instant-death spell, boom, sufficient to fulfill that particular requirement?

The ambiguity is intentional. There is no quantitative justification for PvP, it's always qualitative. Do you feel that 3 emotes, hostile, and attacking is sufficient? If not, report it. A lot can happen in 3 emotes, especially if two character already have a long history, and it may be enough. Alternatively, very little may happen in those emotes, and one side may feel PvP was unjustified.

You'll always have to use your judgement, both when initiating PvP, and deciding whether you feel PvP aimed at you was RPed sufficiently.

What you do know if that there must be some interaction, prior to PvP, which leads up to that PvP. It could be as simple as a roadside stickup, but it has to be something, and it shouldn't be one sided.

If you're just upset that someone beat you in PvP, after sufficient RP, that's no reason to send in a report, but don't ever think that an actual infraction isn't "bad enough" to warrant sending a report, if you think something was done wrong. That's for the DMs to decide, and their ultimate decisions about player conduct are usually based on trends rather than isolated incidents. It's always better to report too much rather than too little.

[solo]

As I said earlier we're quite far from reporting territory here. It seems all the boxes were checked, if only minimally. This seems to be more of a high level player wanting to flex some muscle than anything else.

Thanks for your time, and I like the guides in your signature. They were helpful.

[Aodh Lazuli]

It is worth noting that we do have an equally (intentionally) vaguely worded rule which is designed to promote and foster a certain good-naturedness and generosity between players OOC.

In my experience, repeated cases in which someone is ill-tempered and classlessly rapid with their hostiling and reaching for the pvp-go button, will (probably) result in DM action.

But of course, if these incidents which brush rather closely to the rules go unreported, then the DM team lack sufficient context to determine whether this is a repeated pattern.

[Ork]

I wanted to briefly touch on the DM reporting, too. Not every report is going to have some punitive response metted out on the reportee. If you feel the action was flirting that line, reporting to the DMs will allow them to compile information if this individual performs this sort of activity on a frequent basis.

Don't be afraid to report an issue that you feel might not merit DM attention, they'll sort out that sort of thing themselves.

[Iceborn]

While not technically against the rules, you should always give the other party an out - nothing wrong with playing a bully, but those things are far better roleplayed than mechanically enforced on other players.

Inability to take such things into account so may be considered a breach of the "Be Nice" rule. OOC Power Flexing should be reported and culled.

You cannot just walk up to somebody you don't know and emote for an attack to satisfy the "interactive roleplay" rule. There has to be context and reasoning for that attack to happen, sufficient enough for the other player to understand why it may be happening. And that said, it's still in poor taste to initiate PvP so eagerly. I would be furious if somebody did that to me.

[The Kriv]

Also be aware that misunderstandings can be very common in this text-driven game. Just because you communicate with someone with the intention of creating a PvP potential confrontation, they may miss your text simply because their eyes might not be on the right window.

You may think that the person/character is ignoring you, when in actuality they simply haven't picked up on the fact that you have already dropped two or three ultimatums on them.

And also.. you could be on the reverse side of this, suddenly finding yourself being attacked and not really understanding why.


I've been on both sides of this, and even been in situations where my character has shouted at another character to halt... the character not halting... shout again... still not halting... and then shouting "halt or you will be fired upon" . and the character still not halting... Nor has the player RP'ed any acknowledgment whatsoever... THEN of course, I feel like I've satisfied the requirement to initiate PvP... and the other player finds themselves being attacked by an archer.. and so naturally they charge in to defend themselves.

Now, in this specific example of confusion, I pulled my character back to try and break off the PvP, now that I got their attention, and have gotten them down to below 50% health.. with my archer being 100% health, and I halt the attack on my end and attempt to initiate RP. But the other player didn't see (or recognize this) or simply didn't care to respond. Unfortunately, the opportunity presented to Break off the attack and initiate intermediate RP wasn't reciprocated, and the other player ran up and clobbered my archer character (who was a MoD character which made it especially painful).

I knew I had been on the flip side of the RP (being the one attacked and not knowing why) so I kind of understood, even though my pride was hurt a bit, since I probably could have survived the PvP, if I had kept firing instead of break off and try to talk.


So you can see how the vagueness of the rules can potentially be both a detriment and a benefit since had the player simply recognized what my intent was, an altogether different RP scenario would have gone down.

Lesson Learned: Give the other player the benefit of the doubt... and always be aware of your surroundings!

[Iceborn]

Honestly, Kriv, that sounds of a case of somebody that was simply too stoned to realize what was even going on.

[solo]

Thank you for the responses, it's very informative to know what other players do in such cases.

[Might-N-Magic]

If you don't define the rules, then nobody will know what they are or be willing to risk anything...

And it also makes you look like you'd be willing to use them to conveniently justify favoritism if you're corrupt.

[Nitro]

If you don't define the rules, then nobody will know what they are or be willing to risk anything...

And it also makes you look like you'd be willing to use them to conveniently justify favoritism if you're corrupt.

On the flip side of that, rules lawyers are more justified when they skirt close to the edges of the rules because they're still following the technical definition of the rule, conveniently specifically defined for them.

[Anatida]

My understanding was that some degree of OOC communication was required to begin with.

This is actually not required, nor have I been involved in a situation where it was used. It would be nice, as would needing to allow the person an out from PvP - that is also not required. THE EXCEPTION being if you want to raise a person you have killed. They have to OOC consent to that and to a waiver of the 24 hr rule.

[Arienette]

I have found that any time i have tried to give other players the benefit of the doubt, they use the opportunity to get in a Time Stop, summon, or some other trump card and then initiate the conflict i was trying to give them an "out" of.

[solo]

I have found that any time i have tried to give other players the benefit of the doubt, they use the opportunity to get in a Time Stop, summon, or some other trump card and then initiate the conflict i was trying to give them an "out" of.

Although I have no difficulty believing that, I'm a tad reluctant to make it my foundational philosophy for future interactions with other players.

[Arienette]

Not necessarily advocating that you do. Just sharing experience. My actual advice would be this:

1. Make sure you follow the rules as written.

2. Until you have a better feel for how it goes, dont initiate PvP. In group scenarios, let the more experienced players around you take the lead.

3. Ever after you think you have a good grasp of it, dont be real eager to get into fights. Avoid, talk down, give an "out".

4. Once it has been made clear that the other person is gonna insist fight, dont pull any punches. Be brutal.

Of course this advice is dependent on your character's alignment and attitudes. But thats my 2 cents.

Im a realitively new player, and i get your question totally.

When i first started, i asked the same question to helpful players in Tells and on Discord. I got the same sort of "The rules are very clear, read the Wiki" answers. And i was like "uhh no those rules arent very clear at all!" On Arelith its just something you have to roll with.