Barbarian Build Questions

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dragonspit999
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Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 am

I am playing a Half-Orc Barbarian, currently at level 7, and was looking at finalizing his build. He'll be 30 levels in Barbarian, and I was looking at the Epic Rage feats. On the wiki, it simply lists them under Barbarian as "have been modified." Is this their new effects, completely, or in addition to? I can imagine it overwrote Terrifying, as its very similar, but Mighty is vastly different. Is this actually the case due to the during Rage buffs for Barbarian already anyhow? Thundering is the most different however. Does the new extra attack replace the extra crit damage and deafen chance?

On another note, to an extent anyhow, I also see ont he Barbarian page that it says Rage was changed. Being as how Rage included Greater Rage as a thing, I can also assume these bonuses account for not having Greater Rage, but do Barbarians still have it for the purposes of taking Epic feats and such?

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by LongDongPingPong » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 am

Thundering Rage and Terrifying Rage are good options, while Mighty Rage is a trap. It looks good on the paper, but it's actually better have more frequent rages than longer rage uptime. With the standard 21/6/3 barb/fight/rog you can have both TR's.

dragonspit999
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:00 am

Well, that doesn't nail most of my questions on the head, but it does address some. I am kinda wanting to stay pure Barb tbh, and he started more con based than str based, so Terrifying is probably all I'll grab, but the question is more about the changes Arelith made, whether it entirely replaces the previous effects or not. And even if I wanted Mighty, yeah, it wouldn't be for more rage uptime, but the cc and debuff negate is great.

Now that you mention it though, I'm unsure of whether Mighty Rage only removes its things when you start Rage or if it negates them throughout Rage, at least from just the wiki text. Enlightenment there may help in decision making as well.

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by nobs3 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:33 am

See here viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6287#p130806

It is not completly uptodate (two-hand dmg has been lowered) but still contains most changes.

I play a pure barb with all dmg resist and all rages - two handed (no shield). It is a good build you can enjoy to play. high const, temp hp, and dmg resist lets him stand in battle quite well - even with low AC.

What I might do teh next time:
- not 30 points in parry (was stupid thinking)
- maybe no mighty rage
- maybe 3 rogue lvls

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by LongDongPingPong » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:44 am

dragonspit999 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:00 am
Mighty Rage only removes its things when you start Rage.
That what it does. It does not negate CC throughout Rage. You can go full barb if you want to, but fighter and rogue dips add so many good things barbarian wants, it's hard to not consider them. More damage, free feats, AC from tumble and ability to use all scrolls and wands with UMD? Yes, please.

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:45 pm

So, noted not to take Mighty Rage, it's just not great. I also see the Thundering Rage IS in addition to the old things, so that definitely adds kudo points to me picking it.

And yes, I could see how going Fighter helps a lot, but Grug is more in it for seeing how many hit points he can get, essentially. He's got himself a party, and with the -guard command, him and the rogue go a long way. The rogue is lacking on the UMD, which is sad, but that's a problem we can come to when he decides it necessary and puts points into it.

I do have intentions of building another Barb at some point, a dual-wielding Ogre, that will probably go down the prime build here, but that's for when I get a Greater award.

And my dex is actually pretty low for having a high Str and Con, so does going Rogue 3 even give me anything? I get Evasion, but I probably fail most check anyhow. I get another Uncanny Dodge, but it comes at the cost of HP and AB progression. Albeit, you get lot's of skills, but Grug here has come to terms with his also low Intelligence and by extension skill ranks. Am I missing something, or wouldn't the last Epic Barb DR and more Rage bonuses just be better?

(Not that I'm trying to minmax, I love the flavor of Grug and will probably do pure barb no matter, but I feel I'm missing something with two people mentioning this.)

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by LongDongPingPong » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:03 pm

I'm not trying to convince you to do something you don't want to do, I'm just trying to show all the options that you can have. If you want this character to be a bulky frontliner - you can do that, sure. It's just that barbarians can have enormous HP and damage resistance, but their AC will still be mediocre compared to other classes.
does going Rogue 3 even give me anything?
Yes, as I mentioned before, you'll have another 6 AC from 30 ranks in tumble, which is an equivalent of adamantine tower shield. Also, Use Magic Device feat will give you so many options you want as a tank (applying Barkskin, Haste, Mage armor, Cat's grace with wand/ Shadow shield with scroll, you name it...).

dragonspit999
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:21 pm

Yeah, that's fine, I understand. I'm not saying you're trying to convince me, I'm trying to convince myself. I just want to see everything. I'm very lacking in perception when it comes to trying to see multiclass stuff, as I have been in all editions of dnd.

Grug currently has a -2 in Intelligence, so he only gets 8-2=6 skill ranks per rogue level, right? Even if 8 (currently get 2 per level, even though it should be 2-2, but I'm not sure if it just bottoms out at 2 or negative mods don't apply), 3 levels only gets me 24 ranks, and with only 2 ranks per level from Barb, I don't think it ever hits 30? Not counting the fact that this is using all the rest of my ranks on just one skill, not counting that I'd like to keep Taunt up or go into UMD as Rogue also provides me with. So, with my low intelligence, is it still better than 3 more Barb levels?

And this discussion has got me considering the 6 fighter.
I lose 2 dr, +2 reflex vs traps, 12 hp, +3 2h weapon damage during rage, and +3 passive damage bonus.
However, I gain 4 bonus feats rather than 1, and the possibility to take Weapon Specialization, though I doubt I will.
With my lack of feats from pure Barb, even going for hp tank, I think the feats alone may outweigh it. It's up for consideration.

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by LongDongPingPong » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:46 pm

8 int means no Expertise or Improve Expertise, which will hurt a lot. There's a reason why every recommended melee build here have it, it's just how things in the module work. If you're main attribute is not dexterity, you'll find yourself getting hit a lot (that's why you have to use the Expertise or Imp. Expertise from time to time). And free feats from fighter will do help a lot, usually that's when people use them for feats like Epic Damage Reduction (which you can take up to three times and will add up to 9 damage reduction that stacks with barbarian passive damage reduction). Also 5th fighter level will add another +1 AC.
I just don't want you to find at 30 level that your character have a lot of HP, but not so great offense and think "I should've probably taken that epic weapon specialization..." If you do play with party, you will probably be fine (some parts of the module will make you sweat a lot, but with a good party you can manage it). And there still will be a lot of content you can do solo.
Last edited by LongDongPingPong on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:51 pm

dragonspit999 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:21 pm
Grug currently has a -2 in Intelligence, so he only gets 8-2=6 skill ranks per rogue level, right? Even if 8 (currently get 2 per level, even though it should be 2-2, but I'm not sure if it just bottoms out at 2 or negative mods don't apply), 3 levels only gets me 24 ranks, and with only 2 ranks per level from Barb, I don't think it ever hits 30? Not counting the fact that this is using all the rest of my ranks on just one skill, not counting that I'd like to keep Taunt up or go into UMD as Rogue also provides me with. So, with my low intelligence, is it still better than 3 more Barb levels?
With a -2 Int mod, you're going to have to make some very hard choices when it comes to skills. Also no Improved Expertise, which, as a tank... you're going to miss. You should absolutely not take terrifying rage, since you're not going to have enough skill points to put into intimidate, meaning the fear DC will be mid-20s at best. That's not worth a feat.

Regarding skills: Assuming you go the 21 barb/6 fighter/3 rogue route, you've got... 78 total. Which, not gonna lie, is awful. I would suggest 33 in discipline, 30 in tumble, and 12 in UMD (I'm kinda assuming that you have a -2 Cha mod as well?). Remember that you can bank skill points for later - you don't have to spend them all at once.

I should also tell you that no matter what you do, mechanically speaking, this character will be a challenge. Having 6 Int puts you at a huge disadvantage. If you're committed to that for your RP, then I applaud you, but be aware that you're gonna be playing Arelith on Hard Mode.
Cortex wrote:dont listen to baron for good builds hes bad mkay

dragonspit999
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:11 pm

Yeah, he went a bit too hard into Con over Str, much less Dex or Int, at these first seven levels, and I've already come to terms he'll never be great, especially without a party. That aside, roleplay is the main reason for everything I do now, so minmaxing is not really forefront. I realize now I was getting Taunt and Intimidate confused, yeah, he'll never have the skill ranks to take it anyhow. He only gets two skills and he's going Discipline+Taunt currently, and that's all he's got. I am also coming to terms with how much ac matters over hp, especially on this server, and maybe the party will cover that weakness, but Grug may also just pass away eventually.

I do appreciate you guys' feedback, but this was starting as questions about how stuff works, not necessarily HOW to build him. I can assume most of my answers from this conversation, though indirectly. Thanks for the help.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:28 pm

Yeah, this thread did swerve a bit, huh? Just to be sure you've got the answers:

The effects on the Arelith wiki for Thundering Rage, Terrifying Rage, and Mighty Rage are INSTEAD OF, not in addition to, the effects in the vanilla game. Barbarians do still get Greater Rage at level 15 for the purposes of qualifying for epic feats.
Cortex wrote:dont listen to baron for good builds hes bad mkay

dragonspit999
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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by dragonspit999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm

Thanks again. That's exactly what I was looking for. And I am kinda glad it swerved, I was previously under the impression that my character wasn't going to be the best, but not quite HOW bad it was. At least I can make an informed decision now.

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Re: Barbarian Build Questions

Post by Peppermint » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:02 am

Yeah, just gotta reiterate this: you're going to suck. Super bad. You're playing Arelith on hard mode, and will probably be reliant on parties to do anything at all.

That's fine if you know what you're getting into. Just want to ensure you know.

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