Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

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LemonBerry
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Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by LemonBerry » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:36 pm

" Greater Dispel and Mordekainan's Disjunction CL cap formula changed: The cap is now CL 22,"

I am genuinly curious what the decision behind this change? as in my opinion and testing it seems like arelith is trying to move towards a pure class reward scenario.


Edit: I'm finding updates happening and left mostly confused as to why or what was thought during it which leads to some rather annoying thoughts that presume the team over looked something or the like. If you could shed some light on future updates the 'Why something was changed' that would be lovely.
Last edited by LemonBerry on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

yellowcateyes
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:41 pm

Previously, a dedicated Abjurationist had a dispel CL of 26, while a caster without Abjuration foci had a dispel CL of 20. This meant that dispel mechanics were of little value to a high-level caster without Abjuration.

Currently, a dedicated Abjurationist has a dispel CL of 26, while a caster without Abjuration foci has a dispel CL of 22. This makes Greater Dispel and Mord's a more attractive option even for those casters without abjuration foci.

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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by LemonBerry » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:45 pm

But i'm finding the Greater Dispel the confusing part as it's had it's capp increased from the base 20 to 22, meaning bards and druids are as effective as a wizard increasing the amount of dispelling in pvp to a point that playing a caster class is a hinderence, unless pure? it was still a heavy investment to lock 27 levels into a class and dip 3 for necessities.
Last edited by LemonBerry on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flower
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by flower » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:50 pm

LemonBerry wrote:But i'm finding the Greater Dispel the confusing part as it's had it's capp increased from the base 20 to 22, meaning bards and druids are as effective as a wizard increasing the amount of dispelling in pvp to a point that playing a caster class is a hinderence, unless pure?

I see no reason why clerics / bards should be unable to dispel others.

The changes ensured that clerics and bards can dispel casters who are not fully casters, IE all battle like variants as spellsword and similar.

Clerics and bards are squeezed on feats so benefit from the change while Spellsword may still také abjuration defense feat.

You still will have little chances to dispell dedicated caster without the abjuration imho.

Old Kentucky Shark
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Old Kentucky Shark » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:05 pm

I'm somewhat confused by the expressed reasoning. Shouldn't dispel mechanics be more attractive by definition to abjurors? Much as evocation spells are less attractive to my wizard without evocation feats? By that logic, all spells should have their DC raised by two, and all spell focus feats reworked for a total bonus of four (which I am not advocating).

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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Abjuration-focused casters still have a significant advantage when it comes to dispel checks.

The key is the distinction between 'less attractive' and 'ineffective.' As a matter of overall balance, dedicated casters should have a decent chance at dispelling self-buffing battle casters.

The change opens the door to more use of Greater Dispel by Druids, caster Clerics and high-level Bards. Those classes all have the spell in their spell book but, because they don't get bonus Wizard feats, they can rarely afford to pick up abjuration foci.

Vanilla sorcerers will also get more mileage out of Mord's.

Reliably dispelling the buffs of a pure or near-pure caster still requires investment in abjuration feats.

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Hunter548
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:29 pm

Old Kentucky Shark wrote:I'm somewhat confused by the expressed reasoning. Shouldn't dispel mechanics be more attractive by definition to abjurors? Much as evocation spells are less attractive to my wizard without evocation feats? By that logic, all spells should have their DC raised by two, and all spell focus feats reworked for a total bonus of four (which I am not advocating).
They're more attractive to abjurers than they are to normal mages, but they shouldn't be 100% worthless to non-abjurers, just less likely to be as effective. Prior to this change, abjuration was compulsory because dispels just weren't worth ever casting if you didn't have abjuration focus.


Unlike, say, necromancy DC spells, every mage wants to use dispels. Having them only be useful with one focus just means every mage has to take that one focus.
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Xuuldar » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:46 pm

So, how does it work for non-casters using scrolls?

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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Scroll CL is unchanged. The CL on G.Dispel and Mord scrolls were (and are still) below the CL cap, anyways.

Old Kentucky Shark
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Old Kentucky Shark » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 pm

Doesn't this also greatly change PvE balance as well though? Suddenly every caster in a high level zone just got way more difficult for non pure class casters.

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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:16 pm

Only in very high level areas. Monster caster level doesn't quite keep pace with character caster level, and a lot of monsters are working with CL 15ish dispels, so there shouldn't be any changes. There are a few casters for which this isn't the case, but those can be adjusted on an individual basis fairly easily.
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Old Kentucky Shark » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 pm

All right, cool beans then. Thanks!

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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:10 am

I'm going to be that guy and ask;

Mechanically-
Clerics and druids, who can wear full plate/tower shield with no spellcasting penalties (one pre-epic feat and 3 epic feats worth of effort for an arcane caster, and Edit: 8, actually. 5 pre-epic and 3 epic feats worth of effort for a pure arcane caster <armor/shield proficiencies), a better BAB, and better base saving throws...

RP wise-

Why is a sixth level spell as good at dispelling as a 9th level spell? Why are people who pray to their gods and get their gods to intervene in the temporal world by doing so in the form of manifestations of the weave (miracles), as good at dispelling as the people who actually directly tap the weave and know how it works?


Don't get me wrong. If this weren't Forgotten Realms I could get on board with the whole 'ignore the mechanics and look at the RP,' but both seem to indicate to me that the cap should only have been raised for arcane casters.

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TL;DR Edit: But how does this nerf clerics?
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by MoreThanThree » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:28 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Why are people who pray to their gods and get their gods to intervene in the temporal world by doing so in the form of manifestations of the weave (miracles), as good at dispelling as the people who actually directly tap the weave and know how it works?
Why are Gods better than mortals? hmm :thinking:
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flower
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Re: Could we get some insight into the dispel change?

Post by flower » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:49 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:.....?

It is nerf to Spellsword.

It also helps to divine casters making their dispel actually useful.

That sixth lvl spell is still inferior to Mordekayns breach.

There is totally no reason for arcanists being so exklusive in magic either. Using your arguments, Wizards get best summons, best epic spells, can pick most of epic spell focuses etc etc why should they be able to melee like clerics (aka spellswords)?

That is same argument you used on dispels just worded with different content.

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