Subrace Update Questions!

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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Sab1 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:57 am

Bloodlines and only 1 ecl seem a bit op to me, especially with Iceborns example.
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Lorkas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:24 am

A tiefling or aasimar that selects a bloodline is going to be +2 ECL. I'm not sure whether the bloodline counts as a gift itself or whether it reduces your gift options from that of a +1 ECL race to that of a +2 ECL race.

Either way the mechanical bonuses don't seem ridiculously out of line with other +2 races to be honest. If they're better, they're better at the margins. They aren't going to be instant-winning everything because of an extra +2 to some ability that they spent a greater reward for.
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby susitsu » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:25 am

now imagine a human with +4 int
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Lorkas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:44 am

Importantly, it's just +2 INT in comparison to what humans can already be on this server. That doesn't seem obviously outrageous to me on paper, considering it costs a greater reward, carries extra ECL, and carries some RP implications, but we'll see how it works in practice.

I'm just nervous that we'll see too many of the planetouched appearing again since they're now slightly better than the base race instead of slightly worse.
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Dreams » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:43 am

I submitted a suggestion about the extra feat in regards to Wild Elves already, but could be good for others too.
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Astral » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:03 pm

Lorkas wrote:I'm just nervous that we'll see too many of the planetouched appearing again since they're now slightly better than the base race instead of slightly worse.


That's going to happen to every unique property when you rise it's range from 5% to 25% and make it 2 attribute stronger than everything else with total of 2 ecl. That said, 25% is still not that much and it's only in case your character is high epic and has million gold (which many players don't bother reaching anyway) so I think at this point, the ratio between the amount of planetouched crated and rolled will stay in the world's favor and leave them as unique enough for, atleast, a couple of years, and afterwards you can lock the subrace again for several years as before. The rotation continues.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Catchup » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 pm

I'm less concerned about the Tief/Assimar duet than the pre-existing subrace characters.

It would be nice if they were allowed a one time relevel like the warlocks were, on request.

Not everyone needs it. But it would certainly help certain builds.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Cortex » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:44 pm

Catchup wrote:I'm less concerned about the Tief/Assimar duet than the pre-existing subrace characters.

It would be nice if they were allowed a one time relevel like the warlocks were, on request.

Not everyone needs it. But it would certainly help certain builds.


Sadly there is not much that can be done about this. Unless AR or other people take it upon themselves to create a solution. As it is the case with many updates, sometimes existing characters become outdated.

At least, this is nothing that'll invalidate existing characters.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Catchup » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:46 pm

Yeah. As with everything else it would take a clear position from the devs on the matter.

But it's nothing that can't be done by dms if they allow them.

Otherwise it's just a thought.
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Re: Update Questions!

Postby Sab1 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:01 pm

Lorkas wrote:A tiefling or aasimar that selects a bloodline is going to be +2 ECL. I'm not sure whether the bloodline counts as a gift itself or whether it reduces your gift options from that of a +1 ECL race to that of a +2 ECL race.

Either way the mechanical bonuses don't seem ridiculously out of line with other +2 races to be honest. If they're better, they're better at the margins. They aren't going to be instant-winning everything because of an extra +2 to some ability that they spent a greater reward for.


So iceborns example of getting +6 dex isn't a bit wow?
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Cortex » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:02 pm

A normal elf can get +4 DEX, it's not a massive leap from 4 to 6.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Catchup » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:09 pm

A sun elf can also get +4 int. Luckily you can't stack 2 subraces... Or can you?
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Commie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:13 pm

An infernal sun elf-ling?
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Still no genasi. Makes my heart weep.

(It would be cool if the bloodlines were reworded to mirror what actual bloodlines could be feasible -

bloodline of the demon
of the devil
of the hag
of the horror

or bloodline of the deva
of the leonin

etc.)
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Cortex » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:17 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Still no genasi. Makes my heart weep.

(It would be cool if the bloodlines were reworded to mirror what actual bloodlines could be feasible -

bloodline of the demon
of the devil
of the hag
of the horror

or bloodline of the deva
of the leonin

etc.)


That was my first thought, but I wanted to keep it as vague as it is so people didn't feel shoehorned into something else.

@Catchup, you pick Aasimar/Tiefling at the subrace screen, so you can't stack those.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Commie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:54 pm

Could you stack gifts and these new bonus's and get a 22 starting wisdom tiefling?

And thus a dragon shaper who only needs one epic wisdom?
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Lorkas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:04 pm

Yup!
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Commie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:23 pm

Looks like I gotta grind out some rewards.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby gilescorey » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Commie wrote:Looks like I gotta grind out some rewards.

i hope dragonshape gets completely obliterated by nerfs just because of this post
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Commie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:56 pm

Well it's good when it takes 3 or five epic feats minimum.

Just one? When you can just splash dragon shape kn top of a normal druid build rather then fully build to it?

I'm new here so I'll reserve balance judgements but that is some crazy race/feat value.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby susitsu » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:07 am

>when people are still arguing that dragon shape is op while just being in dragon shape alone is such a huge sacrifice to your combat ability and leaves you immensely vulnerable in too many ways and is still not even a reason to make druid's worth it because they're such an atrociously horrible class
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Lorkas » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:45 am

Commie wrote:Well it's good when it takes 3 or five epic feats minimum.

Just one? When you can just splash dragon shape kn top of a normal druid build rather then fully build to it?

I'm new here so I'll reserve balance judgements but that is some crazy race/feat value.

We've seen the worst that road can offer--in the past, raven totem gave +4 WIS as a hard bonus, and that path doesn't even touch your gift selections. We had people starting with 24 WIS and getting Dragon Shape at level 24 without spending any epic feats on getting WIS. Heck, if you put did svirfneblin raven totem with a WIS gift and gift of subrace, you could start with 26 WIS and get it at level 21.

With this update, it costs them 2 epic feats instead of the 1 it cost them during the reign of raven totems, and they can get it at level 28 at the earliest, and not every build would get a feat to spend at that level (only pure druids and druids with exactly 4 levels in another class get a bonus feat at that point. Any other build has to wait until 30 for it.

Also, playing a character like the one you mentioned has an opportunity cost. You're spending a reward that could be used to play a fun unique character throughout the life of the character, and instead getting something that's purely mechanical, and doesn't even make you notieceably more powerful until level 30, when anyone else could get the feat anyway.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Seekeepeek » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:25 am

Guess we will see an overflow of Assimar and Teiflings again... you want em on or? heh
i think they get (x3) 15% elemental resistance still? pretty wicked.
wish i havn't used my greater reward on a plane touched before this.
i sure as hell is done with the 5% roll system tho, it make me to emotional when existing stuff that need a reward is fiddled with... :/

should allow those that used a reward to get the chance to pick a stat gift... don't care much about the bloodlines on existing toons, since changing that mess up the toons to much.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Commie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:56 am

Lorkas wrote:We've seen the worst that road can offer--in the past, raven totem gave +4 WIS as a hard bonus, and that path doesn't even touch your gift selections. We had people starting with 24 WIS and getting Dragon Shape at level 24 without spending any epic feats on getting WIS. Heck, if you put did svirfneblin raven totem with a WIS gift and gift of subrace, you could start with 26 WIS and get it at level 21.


Oh I get you. I didn't want to comment on balance I'm far far far too new to actually give any meaningful feedback besides impressions.
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Re: Subrace Update Questions!

Postby Sab1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:10 pm

Cortex wrote:A normal elf can get +4 DEX, it's not a massive leap from 4 to 6.

2 extra dex at startup isn't a minor thing.
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