IC vs Player Actions

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Septire
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Septire » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:07 pm

Xanos950 wrote:What's worse?
- Breaking Character and RP and going with an option the character usually would not do IC.
- Maybe breaking the Be Nice Rule.
This is a bit of a false choice because Rule #1 is not phrased: Roleplay.

Looking purely from a rules perspective, I would rephrase it like:

- Bend, or Break the Roleplay rule which states Stay IC at all times
- Potentially Break the Be Nice rule which states to not partake in unwarranted rudeness, harassment and poor gamesmanship.

Remember, Rule 1 is Roleplay. It's the paramount, cardinal rule of the game. There's a reason why it is right at the top of the list. 'Be Nice' means unwarranted rudeness, harassment, or poor gamesmanship. One of them governs remaining IC at all times, the other refers to OOC etiquette, not IC etiquette.

I would say it's not unwarranted rudeness because the other party is tossing around threats and inviting confrontation IC. The player may not even be motivated to fight; sometimes RPing a hostile and spontaneous character has its drawbacks, it means biting off more that they can chew, if they are being true to their character. I've always read Be Nice to mean politeness OOC towards fellow players, not mandated IC politeness. Harassment isn't the issue here because one isolated case of PvP or conflict doesn't fit the definition of harassment and isn't repeated. So is it poor gamesmanship? Where do you draw the line between IC and OOC motivation? I think this is important because it's not enough to assume that a character's decision-making process matches a player's knowledge of the game, mechanics, and of the other player at the keyboard. That is metagaming information your character doesn't know, and it's not kosher.

Is it considered poor gamesmanship to stomp a lowbie who is asking to be stomped? Phrased in a different way: Is my RP conducive to the setting, atmosphere, and believably of my character? Are the consequences of the RP on both sides a proportionate and reasonable outcome? Is it reasonable to consider alternative RP routes like letting the person escape, subduel, etc? Will alternatives to PvP improve the overall RP? Or is this encounter really just motivated by OOC pride and a desire to win, on either side?

It can be hard to tell at times what the best option is; it really depends on how the situation is unfolding and the personas of the characters involved. I would say giving players a get-out-of-jail-free option whenever PvP could potentially happen is a bit silly and artificially forced, and here's why I think that: Be Nice doesn't mean abandoning your character's identity and RP, or suddenly developing gross incompetence to allow for their escape. Be Nice is an OOC imperative to Be Nice to your fellow player. That really goes both ways, and it means accepting the consequences of RP on both sides.

The lowbie shouldn't be trying to pick a fight because it's a lowbie area either. The notion that "Only low level characters are going to be in this low level dungeon, so I can fight this guy and win because I am strong for my level range" is a fallacy in any open-ended MMO game, and though reasonable to assume, there's a mote of metagame mixed in there too. This other party is really opening a Pandora's Box by threatening someone they don't really know, and if you think about it: They're threatening you!

If you assume that the other party is abiding both the Roleplay and Be Nice rules, and that they are going to give you some reasonable, justifiable, IC out if you RP in an appropriate fashion... why not just pursue PvP? If it's his character's RP to be aggressive and threatening, and it is your character's RP to not back down to a challenge... just let it be done. Accept that there are conflicting persona designs from character creation. Being in a lowbie area doesn't automatically put him in the right, but it does put a lot of suspicion on why you were there to begin with. A DM is going to look at it something like this: If the lowbie reports you, it's probably going to be something along the lines of "Why is this high level character in a lowbie area in the first place?" Make sure you have a justified reason IC to be there, because DMs are going to be asking the same question: Is it good for the setting, or is it OOC pride? You just need to make sure that the DMs and the other party can see clearly that it isn't OOC pride with demonstrable evidence.

As a disclaimer, this isn't an invitation on my part to design characters whose RP just happens to involve PvP at the drop of a hat, or to troll others and invite PvP onto them. The character has to be conducive to the setting, the gameworld. I expect that overly confrontational, one-dimensional characters would not last long, whether they be starting fights at low level, or keeping their head down until 30 and then starting it. You don't need to play a character that gets along with everybody, just have respect towards your gameplay environment. Come to terms with the fact that the gameworld and most characters will seek to destroy villains, and be prepared to bow out when it happens. I just feel like giving everyone an out all the time trivializes hostilities and let's people get away with trolling ("I'm going to incite this guy, but he has to give me an out otherwise he's breaking the rules."). Part of the charm of the game is when people have varying decision-making processes. If we slap on a blanket Out for every encounter, we risk homogenizing encounters, turning it into a template Yes PvP No PvP type thing when something in between might exist (such as robbery of items, sacrificing one person in the group as a peace offering to cannibals rather than the whole group). If you let characters off the hook all the time, and give them an out with a neon flashing sign pointing the way, then it's disingenuous to the environment and characters that are a part of it. I think that for a RP environment to be taken seriously, we need to accept that things won't always go our way, as players. Usual stuff when it comes to highly questionable play and unclear motivations, report it, there's likely more to the story, but if there isn't, a DM will sort it out.

Without a clear definition on what is and isn't poor gamesmanship (and assuming that is just left to interpretation for the DM team), that would be my take on it. However, being an open-ended term, your mileage may vary from DM to DM and from person to person. This is just my take on it.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:23 pm

Often times there are ways to keep in character while still having fun for all. For example, this low level character really wants a fight and you know that you can beat them. They're threatening you and perhaps that goes against your character's honour so they decide to show this upstart a lesson.

So give them that fight. Stop before they die and you have a few options:
- If they faired terribly against you then let them go with a warning to not bother their betters
- If they did well, perhaps congratulate them on their skill. Perhaps you could even offer to mentor them in their weapon so that they have a chance to win next

I would wonder, IC, why is this person so aggressive? Perhaps their character has had a bad day and needs to fight something, perhaps they're aggressive and need to be shown that aggression can be foolish at times and perhaps they see you as an opponent and are testing your mettle to see if you'll back down from a fight.

Sticking to it IC opens up avenues of RP as well that can improve both your characters. Perhaps their character learns to tone their aggression, perhaps yours gains a student and must learn to become a teacher, or perhaps you accidentally kill them instead of subduing and feel some need to atone (good character or not) for winning a fight that was onesided.

Overall my point is that you can remain in character at all times but characters are complex enough that you can have multiple IC actions to the same thing. Your character can normally beat down anyone that threatens them, but choose to wonder why this upstart is challenging someone as powerful as they obviously are and do something different.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by AllTheWorld » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:11 am

I really think the default should be:
- I can assume the other player is acting IC.
- I can assume the other player won't take what happens IC personally.
- The Be Nice Rule isn't referring to your character being nice, it's referring to you as a player being nice in the way you conduct yourself.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:50 am

Threatening PVP over grinding areas, when it is clearly implied the aggression is caused by a want of access over grinding areas, should be a reportable offense.

Also, can you get a bigger red flag that dungeons and PvE content needs a look at if people are killing each other over xpees?
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:24 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Threatening PVP over grinding areas, when it is clearly implied the aggression is caused by a want of access over grinding areas, should be a reportable offense

Why?

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Septire
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Septire » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:10 am

Honestly, fighting over XP-rich dungeons, which is an intangible quantity from a character's perspective, should be a reportable offense imo. I mean, some fighting may be justified if there's some reason regarding race, alignment, faith, but trying to kick people out of the party because ~20xp per kill is "too low" is ridiculous and shows how dire player mentality has become. Especially when the reason must be explained through a tell because it can't be translated IC. Doubly so when all players suddenly stop and all agree at the same time because they're on Discord discussing rates. Huge metagame and table-talk to the point of it disrupting the RP. Beyond any doubt for reporting if said group also seldom interacts with the playerbase outside of said Discord group for the purposes of not getting bogged down in RP and to avoid bringing extras along to their pre-planned leveling party.

To answer Why: Consider the situation. You're prepared to kill another sentient being... because they're going to go kill other sentient beings that you were going to kill anyways, with or without you.

I guess you could say it impacts your gold... but let's be real, it's more about XP rate. If you're putting XP ahead of RP, I think a report should happen simply to keep an eye on what the player intends to do with such a character. If the fun of the game is in seeing XP ticks for killing creatures and reaching 30 as fast as possible to shoe-horn a narrative in A) It's probably not that good of a narrative since your entire character's progression arc has been skipped in the race to 30, and B) It's probably at someone's expense, since you feel the need to be level 30 before said narrative can take place (it's likely competitive in some capacity). It could also be C) they're just trying to get 5% rolls, and if that is the case, I would highly encourage the admin team to consider their RP across previous and current characters and their merits as a roleplayer before approving 5% rolls. In the past, 5% stuff had to go through Jjjerm, and he decided both what concepts were reasonable, as well as the player's aptitude, attitude, and qualities as a human being, and reserved the right to decline a request for whatever reason he deemed appropriate.

With regards to the red flag bit, as mentioned elsewhere, mechanics and PvE content balancing are not going to correct player mentality unfortunately. It used to be that 10xp was low and you'd get expunged for lowering the group XP or going above the desirable party size of 4. Now it's 20xp. Same thing, same treatment, just higher XP threshold. No matter how fast or slow the rate may be, some players want to go full speed and are willing to do what it takes to assure they are going as fast as possible. We can add alternate dungeons, but... we have those as well, and the cream of the crop are going to be picked by these players anyways for optimal grinding. You need only consider the sort of dungeons which were added and rebalanced in the past, you'll find that the same problems existed back then as well. Providing more dungeons to give alternatives, or tweaking XP rates so people level faster or slower addresses the symptoms, not the cause. The cause being putting oneself, and one's bois, ahead of the rest of the randoms out there. It's a problem of entitlement.

I get that leveling can be painfully boring and slow, but that does not justify taking an extreme stance which only makes the overall situation worse. If it's slow, suggest how it could be improved, or at least try RPing along the way to make it somewhat more enjoyable. If you take matters into your own hands and start pushing around other players or finding ways to break the game's fragile balance to correct it, it doesn't fix the root issue inherent in the playerbase (note: I don't think the problem exists in the game itself in terms of design or mechanics, it's in how the players choose to play the game). As I said above too, those players who make it their narrative to PvP when the time comes, at the expense of others for the lols, don't tend to last long. Characters need to be more than one-dimensional.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:20 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Threatening PVP over grinding areas, when it is clearly implied the aggression is caused by a want of access over grinding areas, should be a reportable offense

Why?
Septire elaborates nicely. To put it short and sweet -

- you're fighting over XP
- you're fighting over who gets the right to kill monsters. dangerous, adventurer-killing monsters. it strikes me as absurd.
- you're signalling aggression over something that you think you have a right to. an adventuring party ahead of you is not obliged to stop because you want xps. maybe if they're courteous, but to invoke hostility over a non-factor is just insane. why can't you just go somewhere else?

It is about PvPing over the right to gain XP, essentially.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by gilescorey » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:41 am

I think the "pvp over a grindspot" thing would either stop completely or fade away to only happening as an outlier if some of the dungeons had some CR boosts for better experience point rewards, by way of making so many different places to go - for example, then who'd need to fight over the FOD, if the Minmir Manor is just as worthwhile?

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Septire
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Septire » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:59 am

PvPing over a grind spot will go away when people realize the absurdity of PvPing over a grind spot. Adding more accessibility in doesn't address why people are PvPing in the first place, it just creates an alternative route around it. If we go ahead and make every dungeon good XP, it just turns dungeoneering into a hierarchical selection process, from most efficient to least efficient depending on which dungeons are currently occupied.

Even if you make the CR the same, the actual experience wouldn't be the same. If Minmir Manor is just as worthwhile, it's still much further from FoD, so there's a greater travel time to get there and back. Someone will sit down and math out which dungeon is actually superior in terms of XP and gold, and fighting for the best dungeon will still occur. Maybe the party can't fight undead as effectively as they can Malarites.

We've had good dungeons in the past that players could cycle between. I've witnessed a group arrive at a grinding location, the RP went something like this:

"Oh you're here already. Ok, well are you leaving soon, or should we go elsewhere? We don't want to ruin your.... "fun" after all."

I don't even know what to say. It's barely RP at that point. It's sad. I don't mean it's sad like I'm condescending towards the people either, I mean it really makes me sad to see players who have gotten to the point where they just don't care anymore about any semblance of RP or believably and see the game for how many levels you have. It's just groups looking to stay at one location and grind out as much XP as they can in the shortest order possible, and the common RP is just that: You're grinding, we don't want to affect your rate, so we'll just pick up and grind elsewhere. Happy XPing! And the party departs without a modicum of RP beyond that. You've upheld the Be Nice rule, at least, but you got out of there knowing they just want to grind and didn't want to impose at all with your RP. It's like a silent agreement that if people want to silent grind, you don't RP, because XP > RP and you can always RP later.

PvPing over grindspots will cease when people cease necessitating levels for their RP, either under their own volition or at the decision of a DM and fellow players who believe the grind-fever has gone too far. Adding more dungeons doesn't reform players, it just allows others to avoid the latent issue without having a DM or the community intervene on their priorities.

I don't accept the notion that PvP over grinding locations is justified. It's silly. As bad as the above scenario was, seeing players actually fighting over the XP is far worse. It's debilitating to morale. I really feel such players should be at 10 RPR or even 0 RPR if that's how the game is going to be for them. I can't see what good it brings to the setting.

I really feel like sooner or later we're going to reach a breaking point.
One philosophy is going to say: We're mathing the game out and calculating best builds, best routes, highest efficiency, and RPing the way we want to RP, and if you don't like it, too bad. That's how the game is. Good narrative can't exist without good mechanics.
The other philosophy is going to say: The game's not about maximum efficiency, best build, or best route. It's about narrative, story, and immersive RP. It you don't like it, too bad. That's how the game is. Mechanics don't mean anything for an RP server if the players look to abuse them and don't actually know how to RP.

Probably, some middle-ground will be reached here and there, but I suspect that, given the priorities of the admin team, the second philosophy is going to gain more and more ground over time. Certain behavior patterns may not be sustainable in the future because of this shift in philosophy. Thankfully, the best part about all this is the players who grind endlessly like this are the outlier and can easily be corrected. Would be far worse if the problem was more wide-spread.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by RamblerTeo » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:13 am

just don't farm your level 27+ character in an area where low epics go and that's it

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Lorkas » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:38 am

Go where you want if it's IC and fun. I still go to Talassians at level 30 because it's part of my character's job to help keep them from encroaching on Guld's territory too much. If someone threatens to break your character's legs for being somewhere, absolutely feel free to try to teach them why it can be dangerous to threaten armed strangers (that doesn't necessarily mean PK).

Just don't be an OOC jerk about any of it.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by SwampFoot » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:43 am

RamblerTeo wrote:just don't farm your level 27+ character in an area where low epics go and that's it
I think this is part of the problem. Areas aren't labeled as level x to level y. They're given names and creatures to kill. If a character wants to limit his entire adventuring career making the run through the kobold mine near Cordor there's nothing wrong with it. No, they aren't going to get rich and they certainly aren't gaining a ton of xp after a certain point, but also, no, it's not up to another player to tell them they are doing it wrong.

I understand the grinds. I do it often. But I also understand there's only a level cap on a party if you want it to be there. I've followed level thirties through RDI at level 12 for the RP or faction play reasons, I've also dragged lower levels through harder areas for the same reason. And if it's the speed with which xp is gained that concerns you, also consider that that higher level can kill much faster and encounter much more mobs in a shorter time, making the xp somewhat even out.

I shouldn't have to choose between murdering a low level group or leaving. There are more options.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Lorkas » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:55 am

You also shouldn't have to feel guilted out of murdering someone who threatens to mutilate your character just because they are weaker. At the very least, your character is justified in beating them a bit for it (if it's in character for you to do so).

Yes, high levels characters who seek out conflict with lowbies are jerks. Lower level characters who think that makes them immune to being taken out or knocked around a bit for making IC threats deserve to be proven wrong without regrets.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:01 am

Yeah there's definitely a lot of middle ground between 'just killing lowbies' and 'defending yourself from random threats.'

Frankly, threatening to mutilate people over a hunting ground seems ridiculous no matter what level you are.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:41 am

PvP over grindspots is a bit of a hot-button issue in the UD, due to the sheer number of surface PC groups that come down and constantly run into UD PC groups, very frequently resulting in PvP. You can imply that making certain dungeons better doesn't matter, but it certainly does in this sense. Risk v. Reward drives surface parties to the UD, especially the 'optimal farming' crowd.

In the UD v Surface dynamic that is set up IC, murdering someone over a hunting ground makes absolutely perfect sense. Your PC is staring its enemy in the face, and that enemy is looking to raid the same group of people/creatures you are. Aside that being money out of your PC's pocket, that is money going to the enemy, who will probably use it against your people, be you UD or surface aligned, later. Its practically imperative that you either drive off or eliminate the interlopers.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:03 am

But Durvayas, you're not [Or shouldn't] fighting with the surfacers over _XP_!

If the real issue is, 'Oh my god, those damn Cordorians are here killing the driders so we can't!'
And no, 'Oh my god the Cordorians are in the underdark at all!'
With due respect, you're doing it wrong.

No-one has an issue with legtimate conflict that comes from RP reason, the issue is conflict coming from ooc factors like the floating number of XP over your head and if it's big enough.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Nitro » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:27 am

Septire wrote: We've had good dungeons in the past that players could cycle between. I've witnessed a group arrive at a grinding location, the RP went something like this:

"Oh you're here already. Ok, well are you leaving soon, or should we go elsewhere? We don't want to ruin your.... "fun" after all."

I don't even know what to say. It's barely RP at that point. It's sad. I don't mean it's sad like I'm condescending towards the people either, I mean it really makes me sad to see players who have gotten to the point where they just don't care anymore about any semblance of RP or believably and see the game for how many levels you have. It's just groups looking to stay at one location and grind out as much XP as they can in the shortest order possible, and the common RP is just that: You're grinding, we don't want to affect your rate, so we'll just pick up and grind elsewhere. Happy XPing! And the party departs without a modicum of RP beyond that. You've upheld the Be Nice rule, at least, but you got out of there knowing they just want to grind and didn't want to impose at all with your RP. It's like a silent agreement that if people want to silent grind, you don't RP, because XP > RP and you can always RP later.
I mean, this I perfectly understand. I don't want to RP with a group that does all their communications in a discord chat, because then I'm stuck talking to a wall of four people moving with unerring silent precision. That's just not fun to me.

And it does make a certain amount of sense to go elsewhere if you see that a group is already in the dungeon, not just because you don't want to tank the XP of both groups. The other group might have it well in hand, or maybe your character doesn't want to insult them as adventurers by insinuating that they can't handle the dungeon on their own.

PvP'ing over dungeons I agree is stupid though, unless there's a particularly valuable resource, like adamantine, in it, in which case that can make some sense since it's not a fight over XP, but resources.

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:29 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: It is about PvPing over the right to gain XP, essentially.
But why is this bad?

I am trying really hard to see this as an evil thing but I can't seem too.

EDIT: Can you explain to me why this is a bad thing? Fighting over training space?

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:33 am

People don't train on the battlefield. They train in training camps.
What exactly is your character training for? Slaying monsters? They're not, they're already doing that.
What exactly is the rational, in character, for your character not wanting the other character to "Hunt" or "Train".
Sure you as a player can see the XP number is marginally lower. What can your character see? Shouldn't they be welcome the help, "Training"?

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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:35 am

See also the be nice rule? 'Well I, the player, want this farming place so I'm going to kill this character that's already here.'

It's a jerk move, and if you can't see that you're being deliberately obtuse.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:06 pm

Rwby wrote:But Durvayas, you're not [Or shouldn't] fighting with the surfacers over _XP_!

If the real issue is, 'Oh my god, those damn Cordorians are here killing the driders so we can't!'
And no, 'Oh my god the Cordorians are in the underdark at all!'
With due respect, you're doing it wrong.

No-one has an issue with legtimate conflict that comes from RP reason, the issue is conflict coming from ooc factors like the floating number of XP over your head and if it's big enough.
If you reread my post, i mentioned fighting over gold, not exp. Exp is an intangible series of numbers. Gold however, funds further training in the form of supplies, so it is entirely rational to kill nominally hostile interlopers over grinding spots. You aren't fighting ovet the right to kill these creatures. You're fighting over the plunder. That is ample enough reason to dirt someone, that said characters are from hostile settlements is simply icing.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:15 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: It is about PvPing over the right to gain XP, essentially.
But why is this bad?

I am trying really hard to see this as an evil thing but I can't seem too.

EDIT: Can you explain to me why this is a bad thing? Fighting over training space?
Because you're not pvping someone over roleplay, your pvping over someone's right to progress in the game. XP should not be a system you should have to fight monsters AND players for. This isn't PUGB.

I don't understand why you think it's acceptable, Jedi. I'm as equally confused as you are.
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Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Septire » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:36 pm

RamblerTeo wrote:just don't farm your level 27+ character in an area where low epics go and that's it
Hey, if I can get 15-20xp per kill in said low epic dungeon as a mid-epic character, and the risk of dying is not obscene, why wouldn't I?

Dungeons don't have level designations on them. Any designation is a social construct which is agreed on as players. That agreement comes from what a character should be able to handle at their given level range, and assumes you have an appropriately-sized party to manage it. If you don't have a powerbuild, and you don't have a group... you go to the next best thing: what you can manage. It's not unreasonable. Suggesting that I remedy those things by either A) playing a better build or B) getting together a big group to manage big dungeons are not real solutions for me; I play during anti-peak hours when there are not many players around. Similar to Frost Giants in the past, the area is able to service a vast level range of characters. If you remember that dungeon, you'd see level 18 up to 30 circle-grinding it. In the high level range, it was 15-20xp per kill then as well. In fact, when golems were first introduced, you'd see level 4s and 5s summoning stone golems circle-grinding them effectively.

So what would that dungeon be classified as? Low, middle, or epic dungeon? Who stakes claim to the area for 'appropriate level'? Is it the lowest level range that can manage it safely? Opinions are going to differ here.

Or better yet, just team up and accept 15-20xp per kill, which is totally reasonable XP. It may not be the 30xp you were raking in before, but you're not just here for the XP, right?
JediMindTrix wrote: But why is this bad?
I am trying really hard to see this as an evil thing but I can't seem too.
EDIT: Can you explain to me why this is a bad thing? Fighting over training space?
Why is it bad to fight and kill players over abstract numbers that they don't know exist?
...
Are you asking for an argument for the sake of seeing how I justify it? Or do you really not understand how it doesn't make sense? You're going to... kill another player... because you're getting less XP in a dungeon.

*Suddenly, Boromir realized as he slayed the final orc that he didn't learn as much from the battle. He wasn't certain how he knew, but he did. He wildly scanned his surroundings. Behind, he saw as a pointed grey hat poked up over the rocks; it was Gandalf approaching*
"Damnit Gandalf, I knew you were here. You're interfering with my training again."
"Really? I just arrived. I assure you, there's no magic-"
"Gandalf, look, you must leave. You're... well, you're making combat all too easy for me. If it's too easy, I will learn nothing."
"I just arrived, I haven't done a thing."
"Gandalf, if you don't leave, I'm going to run you through. My training is imperative!"
"Oh? Why are you training?"
"I don't answer to you, and I don't have time for your questions. Leave."
"...As you say, Boromir. Perhaps some of my magic to ward you and make orc-slaying easier?"
"Of course, Gandalf. The magic will make slaying orcs far easier and I will learn more because of it."
"That doesn't make sense, Boromir."

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Lady of Memes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:19 am

Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Lady of Memes » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:46 pm

Septire wrote:
*Suddenly, Boromir realized as he slayed the final orc that he didn't learn as much from the battle. He wasn't certain how he knew, but he did. He wildly scanned his surroundings. Behind, he saw as a pointed grey hat poked up over the rocks; it was Gandalf approaching*
"Damnit Gandalf, I knew you were here. You're interfering with my training again."
"Really? I just arrived. I assure you, there's no magic-"
"Gandalf, look, you must leave. You're... well, you're making combat all too easy for me. If it's too easy, I will learn nothing."
"I just arrived, I haven't done a thing."
"Gandalf, if you don't leave, I'm going to run you through. My training is imperative!"
"Oh? Why are you training?"
"I don't answer to you, and I don't have time for your questions. Leave."
"...As you say, Boromir. Perhaps some of my magic to ward you and make orc-slaying easier?"
"Of course, Gandalf. The magic will make slaying orcs far easier and I will learn more because of it."
"That doesn't make sense, Boromir."
+1 for Lord of the Rings



"In the words of someone wise, it's sad to make passive aggressive complaints on kudos forums."

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: IC vs Player Actions

Post by Xerah » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Septire wrote:I really feel like sooner or later we're going to reach a breaking point.
One philosophy is going to say: We're mathing the game out and calculating best builds, best routes, highest efficiency, and RPing the way we want to RP, and if you don't like it, too bad. That's how the game is. Good narrative can't exist without good mechanics.
The other philosophy is going to say: The game's not about maximum efficiency, best build, or best route. It's about narrative, story, and immersive RP. It you don't like it, too bad. That's how the game is. Mechanics don't mean anything for an RP server if the players look to abuse them and don't actually know how to RP.
I'd like to comment on this as someone who started here a few months ago.

The way optimization is approached here gives off an extremely poor first impression for a role play server. People are hyper-aggressive about needing to be optimal that it makes you think even one mistake (or a flavor based choice) on feat selection will doom your character forever. As a new player, you don't understand why this is, you just listen because you don't want to be the doom of parties for your entire character's life.

It's only long after the fact that you find out it's because the focus is so much on PvP content and not wanting to lose a mechanical battle. The idea of giving the character a chance in a conflict situation without mechanical engine enforced resolution seems completely lost here.

Everyone has what they are used to in a 15ish-year-old game, but to me, this was an extremely odd adjustment. It's what I'd expect from a PVP server not one focused on storytelling.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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