How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Manabi » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:44 am

I swear I just want to frame everything Stath has ever written here.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby If Valor Were Inches » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:21 am

As a non PvP focused player, I'm not really bothered by "powerbuilds". I still and do make characters that aren't 100% optimal, that still have notable strengths and weaknesses in their character sheet I get to play out, and force my character to make allies. Sometimes I make horribly awful characters that I'll play into high epics, notably a chaotic mayor of Guldorand that was a 10 con rogue/barbarian that died to her own rage 4 times.

And when PvP does happen, its either very memorable and progresses the story to exciting avenues, especially when my character was temporarily captured, or just dry and forgotten, when they die to a one-hit spell or a time-stop death. But sometimes those too progressed into a story, and my character was avenged by friends in the latter scenarios. Even if nothing happened, it stung a little sometimes, but I've never really gotten hurt over it, mainly because I've never minded "losing", and actually enjoy it the most when my character gets caught, because that's the most exciting moment for me. I think, what is going to happen now? How are they going to get out of this huge problem? And then they do, and it's such a thrill.

I don't believe "power builds" have any more leverage than any other person can with a sub-optimal build. Play what makes you happy. I don't like "powerbuilds" simply because they're often copied, where I want to be original and unique.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby gilescorey » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:33 am

I wish I was a powerbuild irl. Maybe then I could get a gf
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby flower » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:25 am

Grit teeth and endure nothing last forever even someones pvp dominance. Play something else when needed and avoid those guys.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Rodent » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:49 am

I will note that this server's most prominent characters, both historically and even at present are not characters that will resort to pvp as the first resort. A few of them aren't even good builds. Consider Arelith as a storytelling medium. But the keyword here is...an interactive storytelling medium. You're trying to do something, but the guy you're interacting with is also. Give-and-take are to be habitual and necessary if you want anything more than a mechanical interaction.

Of course, players have and will always exist that consider Arelith as a standard MMO and simply brutalize other players to enforce their own will, but the community's been very good at ostracizing them generally. On the rare occasions this does not happen, the DM team here is rather excellent with cool heads all around.

That being said, the answer to someone's 'pvp dominance' is never and should never be 'ignore/shun.' There are always means of dealing with even supposedly 'dominant' characters. Get a lynching going, ambush them. Put pressure on them by indirect and IC means. The fact that this is a roleplay server means you can do these things and they'll have effect!
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Umskiptar » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:57 am

Powerbuilders are literally Hitler, dude.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Astral » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:03 am

Sometimes the other side in the picture has no RP reason to leave you alive and pretty much has to kill you. If you don't like that you can respawn and move on with your life. I'm really done with people who cry when I don't give them "a way out" after they murder, torture and are drow slavers before everything. Of course my character would kill them. Sorry if this doesn't promote your story but these things DO happen and sometime if my character for example doesn't NOT kill you then ~I~ don't have a way out as well. True story.

That aside, powerbuilding is the fastest way to farm your 5% and get your snowflake race/class. That's how being strong got leverage in first place. If a person knows how to build a strong character to serve their concept there's no reason why would build a weak one to serve the SAME concept.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Cortex » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:27 am

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

"Powerbuild".

From what I noticed, the issue here has been overleveled/overgeared/better skilled players stomping, not powerbuilds. How can you know what their build is? They won in PvP, thus they are a powerbuild? Might be you got beat by some meme build, or an average classic build that is not necessarily a "powerbuild".

Just nitpicking.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Durvayas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:49 am

Myself and a friend were recently discussing how PvP and conflict on arelith had, in the past year, gotten signifigantly more toxic on an OOC level, to the point that they left the server entirely and migrated to a NWN2 server. Having spent the last year playing 3 characters on two accounts, I'm inclined to agree. Conflict on Arelith is the least fun its been in years.

A Mystery Clock wrote:But the attitude floating around on Arelith is just...
Rude, disrespected, callous to levels that are absolutely
Not normal.
And not ok.
So if you get pissed, it's not burnout.
It's the environment being legitimately more toxic than average.
Beyond people having a point, mind. One thing is being wrong, another being mocked or treated in a super bloody rude way.


The prevailing pattern is an unwillingness to allow characters an out and often a callous disregard for whether or not the other side is having fun or might want to make something more out of the encounters than 'you are my enemy, prepare to die'. About 3/4ths of the time my characters have attempted to escape(almost always faced off against insurmountable opponents), the other side has done their utmost to block it. If your character is already so overwhelmingly stronger than your opponent that they attempt to flee, what purpose is there to prevent it in a storytelling sense? You've already won, killing them anyways and bashing the corpse is equivalent to teabagging at that point. They're less likely to even engage you in RP the next time they see you after you've prevented their escape the time before because they come to assume they'll get a repeat. Congratulations, you've severed the narrative; most players will just ignore the event and chalk it up to the player being PvP hungry and write it off as meaningless. Killbashing has also become the standard. Post combat-RP has become a rarity. The subdual system was put in but I'm not seeing it used. These patterns are not limited to the underdark, but the entire server. We need to collectively take a step back and re-evaluate how we handle conflict.

I've fought in six wars on my characters in the past year. You know what I haven't seen in that time? I haven't seen the use of capturing characters for prisoner exchanges or leverage. I haven't seen much of trouncing the enemy, then letting them limp home bloody and battered, ashamed of their defeat. I haven't seen a lot of outs being offered at all. Its not that they aren't being noticed, its that in a lot of situations, they simply aren't offered; Its established that "I am going to kill you unless you lense out immediately, assuming I let you." Wars are won by PvPing the other side until their players stop logging into those characters entirely. This is true in the UD and the surface, though the surface notably has a worse habit of just letting the conflict drone on until nobody wants to bother with it anymore, and it ends, but isn't resolved in a storytelling sense.

The idea that 'death by epics' is a myth(thanks for the laugh marsi), is a farce unless you spend all of your time around cordor and its safely protected hug zone of NPC guards and walls that never really gets raided. The majority of PvP occurs after lvl 15. The vast majority of combatants that instigate PvP, unless they happen to be suicidal paladins, are epics; Often high epics at that. Roving squads in war murking lowbies of the opposing faction is not only not unheard of, its practically routine. We have an OOC attitude problem regarding PvP and the 'must win' mentality surrounding that, and it is made only more toxic by seeing other players mocked after losing on discord and skype groups, often with the use of screenshots. Somehow that too has become routine and acceptable.

We're better than this...well... were better than this.

Looping back into the topic... Conflict is controlled by a few factors. Which side is better leveled, which side is more numerous, which side is more PvP experienced, and, unfortunately, which side metagames harder(I've lost count of how many times I've faced off with a group and been in pre-battle RP, only for the opposing side to magically have reinforcements stumble onto the scene). I won't go so far as to say that powerbuilders are innately problem players that seek PvP, but ALL of our toxic problem players are powerbuilders well versed in PvP(and memes). Unfortunately, this has a ripple effect into the IC world, because PvP capability is tangible power, which means that whichever groups are good at PvP call the shots in most scenarios.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Marsi » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:14 pm

Durvayas wrote:The idea that 'death by epics' is a myth(thanks for the laugh marsi), is a farce unless you spend all of your time around cordor and its safely protected hug zone of NPC guards and walls that never really gets raided. [...] Roving squads in war murking lowbies of the opposing faction is not only not unheard of, its practically routine. [...]
it is made only more toxic by seeing other players mocked after losing on discord and skype groups, often with the use of screenshots. Somehow that too has become routine and acceptable.


Yep, sounds like myth to me.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Sockss » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:46 pm

I feel like a lot of the time, the lack of RP that comes from PvP is a direct result of the losing party not wanting to roleplay loss.

These threads always focus on the victors and what they should or should not be doing.
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Re: How come powerbuilds got so much leverage in server?

Postby Mithreas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:53 pm

I think this thread has run its course.

The thing about feedback is that it's useless unless it's specific. As this thread shows, talking about general trends isn't useful, as each person will imprint their own experience onto the subject.

If you're being ganked by people not following the server rules (any of them, not just the PvP one), then report it to the DMs. Reports are followed up on - while I'm not directly involved in that any more, I still see the reports, and the follow-up. If every instance of bad PvP is reported, any problems with people not following rules will vanish swiftly, one way or another.

If all parties are following the rules, and you don't like what happened, then please refer to the book "when bad things happen to good adventurers". This is not a single player game, and it's inevitable that sometimes we'll come across stuff that we don't enjoy. That's the price we pay for playing with other people, and the massive amount of RP and interaction that comes from that. The rules aim to preserve a balanced and enjoyable environment for a wide range of players, and for 15 years, they've done a pretty good job of that with only the smallest tweaks.

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