Sunlight in Shadow Plane

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iria_huntress
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Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by iria_huntress » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:17 pm

One of our party members was nearly cooked to death for being in shadow cordor during the "day".

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:10 am

I made a bug report on this months ago, it also happens in other places where lore-wise it shouldn't such as the abyss and the hells. Actually, any 'outdoor' extra-planar areas.
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flower
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by flower » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:50 pm

I'd go further and say that in mountains should be sunlight limited to undead and alike.

Afterall the areas are clouded and fogged all the time.

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MalKalz
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by MalKalz » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:51 pm

But you are closer to the sun.

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High Primate
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by High Primate » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:25 pm

Sunlight still gets through clouds. If it didn't, then cloudy days would be pitch black.
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flower
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by flower » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:37 pm

DM Spyre wrote:But you are closer to the sun.
So why the snow does not melt?

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by DarkDreamer » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:42 pm

Because its at such a high altitude that it reaches what is known as the "Snow line" Anything above that point stays so cold, it never actually melts.

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Hunter548
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:37 pm

You can have sunlight without heat.

Not to mention that this is assuming the light itself is what hurts vampires, rather than some sort of magical "being outside between sunrise and sunset" sort of aspect of the curse.
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Nitro » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:31 pm

Hunter548 wrote: Not to mention that this is assuming the light itself is what hurts vampires, rather than some sort of magical "being outside between sunrise and sunset" sort of aspect of the curse.
It's a well established fact in D&D that the light of the sun is what harms vampires. You have spells to emulate it, and could even use a mirror to reflect it indoors to harm/destroy a vampire.

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:28 am

Cloud coverage or fog isn't enough for a vampire to be safe. The sunlight needs to be obscured completely (as if it were night), such as an eclipse or within a darkness spell. This counts for Drow too ;) Otherwise their respective curses wouldn't be effective at all, and the Crown War's would have ended very differently and vampire-drow would rule the surface.
/argument

But the concern is for extra-planar travel, where it's a bug. Vampires should be able to travel the hells, abyss and shadow-plane safely outdoors at any time. Other planes are maybe fine too, but I'm not confident enough to assert that to be honest, especially when it comes to places like Celestia or Arvandor.

Would be great to see it fixed, it's one of the reasons I decided to shelf my own vampire. Would love to be a more permanent presence in one or all of those areas, but can't.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Nitro » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:49 am

Where do you get the cloud or fog coverage bit from? As far as I can tell, the sourcebooks only specify "Direct sunlight" as part of the sunlight weakness.

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Xanos950
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Xanos950 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:04 am

it's almost like playing a vampire is kind of a curse of inconvenience.

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:34 am

Nitro wrote:Where do you get the cloud or fog coverage bit from? As far as I can tell, the sourcebooks only specify "Direct sunlight" as part of the sunlight weakness.
If you are standing outdoors during the day you are standing in "direct sunlight". The clouds and fog are not sufficiently blocking the sun, because it is still very obviously day time.

Because otherwise Vampires are less sensitive to the sun than I am, IRL. I get sunburned just getting the mail in Australia on an overcast day. Clouds and fog do not block the harmful effects of the sun fully, and partial cloud coverage can actually increase your UV exposure.

Hockberger, P. E. (2002). “A history of ultraviolet photobiology for humans, animals and microorganisms“. Photobiol. 76 (6): 561–579.


Just making a point, but Vampires are likely not sensitive to UV and from Libris Mortis (the suggested sourcebook for Vampires on Arelith) we also know they are not sensitive to the "positive energy" from the sun. You're right it does only state direct sunlight, but I think being that generous with what direct sunlight is, is a bit extreme. By that logic vampires would barely be restricted to operating during the night at all, unless it was a perfectly sunny day, and even then they could just stick to shady areas such as forests or walkways (like pale slavs that live in Australia).

Vampires are known to be 'creatures of the night'. Not 'creatures of the night and also cloudy, rainy, foggy or otherwise slightly gloomy days, but also generally shady areas and/or people with hats and long sleeves'. Beware the creatures of the night and also cloudy, rainy, foggy or otherwise slightly gloomy days, but also generally shady areas and/or people with hats and long sleeves. Doesn't have the same ring to it.

If the argument was "I am wearing a heavy robe with a hood and wrappings covering my entire body" I would then accept that you are indeed not in direct-sunlight anymore. But while that might make sense lore-wise for a vampire, it would just lead to vampires having no problem traveling the surface and if we're going down that route we may aswell just remove the daylight script entirely and leave it up to players/DMs to keep track of whether or not a vampire is adequately protecting themselves. But I think we can all imagine how that would turn out :P

Also, this is coming from someone who has their own vampire PC (and I love that character). I'm not trying to be mean to vampire PCs or anything.

But this thread is really supposed to be about fixing the extra-planar thing. Not a discussion about vampires and their weaknesses, so let's not derail it any further. If you want to make a separate thread for vampire discussion, I'd probably enjoy that and join in. I have some things to say about other aspects of vampire mechanics on Arelith.

Just so that at least some of this post is on topic, I really want to mention again just how great it would be if vampires could roam the hells, abyss and the shadow-plane like they're supposed to be able to do. That would be really cool~ I know there's a lot happening right now with the EE stuff, but if we could just get a *Nod* from a dev that it's on the back-burner, I think some vamp PCs would be pretty happy. There's no rush. There's bigger things going on right now, to be busy with.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

Beneidalus
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Beneidalus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:47 am

Just to touch upon a grievous inaccuracy,

Drow and Vampires are not anything alike, when it comes to their light aversion

Straight from the 3.5 sourcebook, Drow of the Underdark:

"Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. In addition, they take a -1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks when in bright light."

A drow's aversion to light simply stems from discomfort and inconvenience.

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flower
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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by flower » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:55 am

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:...

On DND wiki for Crown Wars there is nothing to do with Drow at all. Wars were started by Sun Elves, Dark Elves just joined in, and later banished by clerics of Corellon which ended Crown War (but other came caused by same Sun Elves again totally unrelated to Drow).

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Irongron » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:20 am

I remember discovering this problem when making some of the Shadow Plane areas. NWN areas can be set to 'Always Dark' meaning that the day/night cycle will be fixed to nighttime BUT the bug I noticed is that this only works when entering the area - if one is present at dawn/dusk then the cycle still changes, hence 'sunlight' in the Shadowplane. I've never worked out a way to prevent this, though maybe one of the team has an idea. I'll ask around.

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Re: Sunlight in Shadow Plane

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 am

Beneidalus wrote:Just to touch upon a grievous inaccuracy,

Drow and Vampires are not anything alike, when it comes to their light aversion

Straight from the 3.5 sourcebook, Drow of the Underdark:

"Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. In addition, they take a -1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks when in bright light."

A drow's aversion to light simply stems from discomfort and inconvenience.
Of course. I don't think anyone meant to imply that. Just throwing in other light sensitive examples. They're obviously not undead.
flower wrote:
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:...
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Irongron wrote:I remember discovering this problem when making some of the Shadow Plane areas. NWN areas can be set to 'Always Dark' meaning that the day/night cycle will be fixed to nighttime BUT the bug I noticed is that this only works when entering the area - if one is present at dawn/dusk then the cycle still changes, hence 'sunlight' in the Shadowplane. I've never worked out a way to prevent this, though maybe one of the team has an idea. I'll ask around.
Woohoo! I can't wait to be edgy in the shadow-plane.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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